Expat Position Regarding Politics

[nlaruccia]

And frankly,if a french or spaniard complains about food,I understand,but an american...come on,most of the food you eat there,is garbage forbidden in europe

You must have only traveled to Orlando and eaten in TGIF or McDonalds if you think so lowly of American food.

 

[khairyexpat]

You must have only traveled to Orlando and eaten in TGIF or McDonalds if you think so lowly of American food.

The basic ingredients,i was refering to.

Turned out ... he did not think so lowly of (American food / ALL CORNERS OF THE WORLD FOOD) ... that includes Argentine and European foods.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

He did not think so lowly of American food.
(ALL CORNERS OF THE WORLD FOOD ... that would include Argentine and European foods).

Well, seems that he only likes German food cooked by germans with german's raw materials pure race certified (with all my respect to Germans who are not nazis).

 

[semigoodlookin]

Well, seems that he only likes German food cooked by germans with german's raw materials pure race certified (with all my respect to Germans who are not nazis).

Most of them then.

 

[khairyexpat]

It is impossible to think lowly of American food ... your favorite (whatever it is) .. is an integral constituent of the ¨American Food¨ .

The only thing missing now is to identify .... ¨The basic ingredients¨ ... forbidden in Europe.

 

[ElQueso]

Saying that an immigrant can never be Argentino is pretty strong. In fact, personally, I despise the idea that you have to be born in a country to be of that country. It should be much more important, in my opinion, that having made a choice to live in a place and fit in (that being important), you have put yourself in the same boat as everyone else and have skin in the game. The idea of having to be born into something to be a part of that something is very reminiscent, to me, of the old feudal days...

And it seems to me that those who wrote the present constitution to include the ability for any human coming from other countries to make their homes in Argentina (paraphrased but not made up) don't agree with that sentiment either. This has nothing to do with "globalization". It has to do with humanity. Just because certain elements of the government take advantage of that humanity for other reasons doesn't make it a bad idea.

Argentina prides itself on being a country of immigrants, no matter what the current population percentage of immigrants is. I would be interested to see an example of where in the constitution it says that foreigners who come as immigrants or even tourists have no right to complain against the current government and the way some things are done. Nor do I see that it is prohibited to discuss what some (myself included, often) see as a lack of well-prepared food here, or a lack of service, as an example.

Polostar, seems to me that you mixed at least two things in metaphor that don't necessarily come together to make sense, which is often the problem with metaphors.

To begin with, I understand your mentioning manners in someone's house. Unless an Argentine is reading this forum, we are not in an Argentine's house discussing these issues. those who are reading the forum in their own house are doing so of their own free will. In fact, it is a forum primarily dedicated to foreigners trying to figure out how to get along here. As Nikad mentioned (and I have mentioned many times in the past myself) a lot of what we are bitching about here is steam-blowing. It is a big thing for me to be able to do this so I can actually go out in the street and not lose my temper at times.

Now, if I were to go to dine with some Argentine friends of mine, I almost never argue politics in their house. You are correct that this would be quite impolite, unless the host(s) specifically asked this of me, and even then I would be very polite about any such discussion. In fact, this is my modus operandi. When I invite an Argentine into my house for whatever reason, I never invite a discussion of politics (or religion) and if someone has a different opinion than mine and brings up politics, I nod and don't really say anything. I won't insult guests in my house. Except for once (about two months ago) when one of the guests in our house called my wife "Paraguaya sucia" - she wasn't trying to insult her (we think), but with all the racist crap we've put up with it felt quite impolite and I let her know that it was not appreciated. Seems she didn't have the same kind of politeness that i try to cultivate for myself and among my family.

If I insult an Argentino invalidly, I'll be the first to apologize and try to make amends. The woman I mention got mad because we took her statement badly. Isn't there some sort of reciprocal behavior about treating guests in a country properly as well?

When I go somewhere and am treated rudely, I'm going to complain in one way or another. If I go to a government office and am told one thing and find out hours later after waiting in line that I was told the wrong thing, I'm going to complain. If someone on the street asks my opinion about the country, I'm reasonably honest about my opinion, though I try to be as polite as possible.

I've only once had someone completely object to my existence in this country, about 4 years ago in Cafe Iberia, where a couple of us expats were talking and having a coffee after dinner. A guy came over, started to talk to us and his conversation grew ever more antagonistic until he finally came right out and told us that he didn't believe we had any right speaking our ugly language, nor even being in "his" country. I find it intersting that he said it like that - I don't think he was king, or emperor, or even the president.

It interests me that in an attempt at "reverse globalization", it is expected that one should keep their mouth shut and accept whatever is dished out simply because you can leave whenever you want to (although as mentioned, this is not always possible and i am one who would live elsewhere if it were possible). I don't accept that.

Polostar, you are welcome to accept whatever comes at you and keep quiet about it, as a guest here. I have no problem about that. But that is your opinion on how to handle things, certainly not mine, nor do I believe it to be any kind of general consensus, although I have heard this opinion many times.

But I have worked here, have employed people here, have paid taxes here and tried my best to fit into a society that I have zero hope of actually changing - much as about any individual Argentine citizen. I have skin in the game.

And if I do ever end up getting citizenship here, I would still continue with my handling of guests, or of being a guest, the same way I always have. It's just being polite. But if I were a citizen, I'd probably join the Libertarian Party and actively try to change things (even though I don't usually tilt at windmills).

Fresh blood is better than stagnation. If people want to stagnate, then they can change their constitution to not allow people who are not born here to continue to live here. While that may please many people here (maybe even Ariel), I don't think that would please the majority of people.

And I have to mention Ariel - while I agree with many things you say about the government, I really despise your attitude towards "your neighbors". You'd fit in real well as a Republican right wingnut (and I hate that word because it is over-used to mean anyone who is a Republican sometimes; it just seems apt in this case.) No offense, your opinions are your own, but your own people treat those neighbors who come here to work like slaves in large part.

 

[AngelinBA]

Absolutely, completely off topic but how could anyone think that "Paraguaya sucia" was anything but insulting?!?!? How could there be a right way to take that? You are a most gracious host if you did not escort this guest in your house to the front door in a most hasty fashion!!

 

[ElQueso]

Well, according to her she was being familiar with my wife, like calling a friend "negra" or "gorda", etc. The truth is I really think she was being friendly with this particular Paraguaya but maybe some of her inner dialog escaped into public when she would rather that it hadn't. Of course, I didn't mention to our guest that I heard my wife mutter "maldita kurepi" under her breath before I said anything. Kurepi is what Paraguayans call Argentinos derogatorily - it means "pig skin" in Guarani.

Our 19-year-old came here when she was 12 and went to school at a nice private Catholic school. She went through quite a bit of razing about her origins and for the first couple of years her classmates called her "Paraguaya sucia". She often came home in tears at the end of the day and we were worried that we might have made a mistake in bringing her to Argentina. She has since fit in and her friends swear that the jerks didn't mean anything by it, that it was friendly ribbing, but given what I've seen from a whole lot of other people here, I'm never sure.

It's like calling a black person "nigger". Maybe you're saying it to try to be a "homie", but it doesn't often come off well when it's someone of the race or origin that often uses that word for purposes of denigration. I'm not a very "politically correct" person, but sometimes I do understand the need to watch what's said. Particularly living here I've learned quite a bit about that.

Funny thing about South America, or at least between Paraguay and Argentina: when the 19-year-old goes back to visit her mother and father and the two sisters and one brother that are still back home (she just got back today after a month with the other two that live with us), she has found that she has no friends any more. They literally shun her because now she's "rich" and their "verguenza" won't let them be on the same level as her...

So yeah, let's just all shut up about things that are not fair in the world and let everyone live their lives how they want without comment from foreigners I think we could all do some good listening to what people from outside our comfort zone have to say about us.

 

[MissCarol]

In my view an expat, as a guest, should keep out of politics. This means taking no stand for or against the govt., for or against any cause in the country in which you're a guest. Let the locals decide their own fate. I'm here in part because I want to forget about politics in this sense.

I think it's dishonorable to go into someone's house and start criticizing how they do things.

This goes for expats whether they're on a tourist visa or you have citizenship or whatever. You're not Argentinian so stay out of Argentinian politics.

On the other hand, I don't understand why there are some posters here (like Bajo cero or cabrera before) who are Argies who go on an expat forum to lecture expats about how they shouldn't complain about Argentina. I think it's OK to e.g., complain about food or prices, that's different. (It's also a problem with a solution, that is, there ARE some places where you can eat good food and I'm trying to find them.) Anyway, I don't understand this, as I can't imagine doing the equivalent, e.g., finding some Jap expat forum in the US and logging on to rant at people there about how "Oh you want to find the same kind of fish or pr0n you find in Japan! In civilized countries you can't find that product so bugqger off!" lol Who does that? Can you imagine even registering on a forum in Philly to lecture Japanese expats?


On this note I say, the best places to get coffee so far for me are Establecimiento de Cafe and certain nondescript restaurants (not cafes) where for some weird reason they happen to make a good cup of coffee.

Why? I like to share views with people who come from abroad. I am an Argentine and, although expats in this forum usually complain about things here, I find it interesting to know what they think.
Of course, if they are going to give an opinion, I expect them to be at least a bit informed on the subject they speak of... just as would expect it from an Argentine.

 

[MissCarol]

In my view an expat, as a guest, should keep out of politics. This means taking no stand for or against the govt., for or against any cause in the country in which you're a guest. Let the locals decide their own fate. I'm here in part because I want to forget about politics in this sense.

I think it's dishonorable to go into someone's house and start criticizing how they do things.

This goes for expats whether they're on a tourist visa or you have citizenship or whatever. You're not Argentinian so stay out of Argentinian politics.

On the other hand, I don't understand why there are some posters here (like Bajo cero or cabrera before) who are Argies who go on an expat forum to lecture expats about how they shouldn't complain about Argentina. I think it's OK to e.g., complain about food or prices, that's different. (It's also a problem with a solution, that is, there ARE some places where you can eat good food and I'm trying to find them.) Anyway, I don't understand this, as I can't imagine doing the equivalent, e.g., finding some Jap expat forum in the US and logging on to rant at people there about how "Oh you want to find the same kind of fish or pr0n you find in Japan! In civilized countries you can't find that product so bugqger off!" lol Who does that? Can you imagine even registering on a forum in Philly to lecture Japanese expats?


On this note I say, the best places to get coffee so far for me are Establecimiento de Cafe and certain nondescript restaurants (not cafes) where for some weird reason they happen to make a good cup of coffee.

I forgot to mention that this idea of yours that people should keep out of polictics made be feel a bit ashamed, I really can'´t understand your point of view.