'expensas' Listed On Real Estate Websites

[ElQueso]

That's not true. It is a custom, but not a law. What the contract says is what is valid in regard to extraordinary expenses. If no distinction is made in the contract, then the tenant has to pay for them.

Well, first of all, what I said about the national contract in general is indeed true (the one part of my commentary that you quoted, and your first comment was that this is not true). Anything that is in the national contract (or national law) cannot be overwritten or opposed by a contract between two individuals. Period The portion of the contract that is not in agreement with a part of the national contract that has been defined is indeed null and unenforceable. This is the law and is not a custom.

You may have meant to say that the extraordinary expenses, the renter not paying those, is merely a custom, but that is not true either, unless the law has explicitly changed this year (when they made changes to rental contracts) in regard to that (but I don't believed that changed). In a country where the owner is always on the defensive and the "masses" always are favored, I don't believe they would change the law to stipulate that the (proverbial "evil") owner can now charge the renter to pay for improvements to the land or building that would raise his/her property values, which is how extraordinary expenses are defined.

A quick check on Google and I came back with this article.

http://www.orientaci...dos.com/?p=1050

At the end of the article:

En conclusión: no corresponde al inquilino el pago de expensas que importen mejoras y por tanto incremento del valor del inmueble. Sí en cambio le corresponderán las de mantenimiento y conservación.

The expenses they are talking about that the renter is not responsible for are "extraordinary expenses". This is a legal website, although they do not quote the national law under which they are making the claim. They are not saying that it is up to the contract signed between owenr and renter, but it is stated without reservation that they are not responsible for it.

I believe that this is actually a part of the national renters' contract, though am not 100% for sure - it may be a separate law instead. A couple of years ago, when our oldest was still in high school, she was taking the business track in school and was studying law. I helped her specifically with contracts (labor and rental [both temporary and long-term]). While it's possible that I am mis-remembering whether or not the clause about extraordinary expenses are actually in the national contract, I remember it being in there, but even if I'm remembering wrong, it is a national law.

Here's another article, where they specifically say it's part of the law (again, whether by nationally approved contract or a specific law, I'm not sure):

http://www.argnotici...-los-inquilinos
[quote]>Las expensas extraordinarias y el ABL ¿quién los paga?
Usualmente, las expensas ordinarias corren por cuenta de quien alquila. Éstas corresponden a los gastos de mantenimiento general, el sueldo de los encargados, etcétera. Las extraordinarias, que corresponden a gastos excepcionales u obras estructurales que suelen quedar en la vivienda, corresponden, por ley, al dueño. Lo mismo ocurre con el ABL. Sin embargo, éste podría fijar, por contrato, que los pague el inquilino. Es por eso que es necesario prestar atención a la hora de firmar el acuerdo.[/quote]

(Emphasis is original, I didn't put it in) Notice that they expressly say the extraordinary expenses, by law, are the responsibility of the owner. They do go on to talk about ABL, which they say can be set in the contract as to whose responsibility it is to pay. Maybe that's what you were thinking of? Also, it is indeed customary for a renter to pay ordinary expenses, but the last apartment I lived in the owner paid ordinary expenses AND extraordinary. Maybe you are thinking of it being customary who pays ordinary expenses?

And indeed, the contract where I lived in the suburbs, in a closed neighborhood - the owners were trying to get me to pay about 700 pesos a month in extraordinary expenses related to improvements to the neighborhood, which would have served to raise the value of their property. The real estate agent had told me before signing the contract that I wouldn't have to pay extraordinary expenses - I was concerned about expenses as this was my first real long-term rental here. I didn't understand enough at the time I signed the contract to make sure I knew what was what (I didn't speak Spanish very well at the time either, and a long legal document in Spanish was laughable for my comprehension! I was, admittedly, naive at the time).

I went to the real estate office after my second expenses bill came in and it had that extra 700 pesos. The owner was insisting I pay it, according to the contract, but my understanding was I didn't have to. The owner showed me in the contract I'd signed that I was responsible for it (shows how much he tried to take advantage of someone who wasn't familiar with how things work here!). I took it to the real estate office and she told me that he couldn't demand that I pay those, no matter what was in the contract, because it was "en contra de la ley nacional". I didn't pay, I told the owner why, and I never heard from him on that subject again.

If I'm wrong about this, or there have been changes to the law that have changed this, I'd sure like to know!

 

[Girino]

If I'm wrong about this, or there have been changes to the law that have changed this, I'd sure like to know!

If you remember, we had a lengthy topic on the subject this year and the final word was that there was no legal requirements of the owner paying the extraordinary expenses. We have since then left that place and found another. In the new contract there is nothing spelled explicitly, as well, but we agreed in advance with the owner that we would break them down, and things with the new landlord are working swiftly, so far.

Now I am putting this image in the post just in case...

 

[sergio]

Expenses are usually listed in Pesos. Sales prices are almost always in USD (at least what I've seen where I have lived), unless you are talking about new builds, for example, where they are trying to get you to buy into the building with an apartment (which are usually great deals money-wise, one simply has to hope they finish the project as promised, which I think the majority of them do) and these nowadays are often offered in pesos only.

Note to the OP - expenses, as an owner, can vary widely in the same place. Any time anything out of the ordinary has to be done to the building (for example, elevator maintenance is one thing and planned for, but if the elevator craps out and a new one is needed, the owners pay that under extraordinary terms), the owners are charged the extraordinary cost, distributed among themselves usually according to the square meters of each apartment (to apportion the costs fairly). Renters are more lucky in that they are not supposed to pay "extraordinary" expenses. The national contract states that, and as I understand, any individual contract is free to say whatever it wants, but whatever portion of the contract signed that conflicts with the national contract is null and void and is supposedly unenforceable. I.e., a tenant should never have to pay extraordinary expenses, unless there has been a change in the new laws they made recently related to rentals (but I don't think so).

1500 pesos a month for expenses is pretty damned good, at least compared to where I've been living the last 6-7 years or so. Last time I paid around that amount, the peso was still 3-1 to the dollar. But admittedly I live in relatively high-priced areas and have a big apartment (for 5 of us plus my office). One of the reasons I left the suburbs of Garin/Tortuguitas (closed neighborhood) was because I was paying 1300 pesos a month for expenses when the exchange rate was 3-1! I started out at 600 pesos, which was much more reasonable, but had more than doubled in less than two years. Every couple of months the expenses rose and rose and we're not even talking about extraordinary expenses! Total expenses in that neighborhood was around 2200 with the extraordinary thrown in when I left 5+ years ago.

My current expenses are around $5K pesos with a 170 sm apartment. Less, with the blue rate, than I was paying 5 years ago in the suburbs, but nowhere near 1500 pesos

Are you concerned about the 5 K in expenses? I ask because mine keep soaring....and I am worried.

 

[MichaelC746]

Thanks a lot for these replys very helpful information!!

 

[mikic007]

It would be really weird, if renter, that doesn't have voting right in the building, should pay extraordinary expenses. We could disagree on which expenses fall in this field, but not if renting person should pay them.

 

[Ries]

I would like to reinforce the idea that expensas can always go up, and they will. It is extremely unlikely they will ever go down.

The gas meter may leak, and then the city will require all new gas meters for the whole building, and disconnect the gas until its done- this is not uncommon. Repiping a whole building is expensive- but you gotta do it.
Most contractors want large upfront payments, to hedge against inflation.
Porteros are notorious for suing, and winning, more money, settlements, and back wages.
Parts of the building that no one has looked at for 40 years suddenly land in the sidewalk in front.
And so on, and so on.

things like this, and many more similar ones, happen all the time, and so I would conservatively figure that the expensas you will actually pay, especially if its an older building, may be twice what you are told, and will continue to go up.

Of course, compared to condo or co-op fees in a major US city, they are still very low. I know people who pay an amount in condo fees equal to their mortgages, and not just in NYC.

 

[ElQueso]

Are you concerned about the 5 K in expenses? I ask because mine keep soaring....and I am worried.

Yeah, I do. somewhat. It was at 4K when I rented the apartment. It went up to just over 6K for a couple of months (we had to pay some extra maintenance and repair costs on the elevator) and it went back down, but only to 5K. We've been in the apartment a year. I'm betting that it's an annual raise of 25% due to inflation, and if so that's to be expected. All other services seem to be rising at at least 25% and food even more seems to me.

What worries me is what always worries me here. I keep remembering back to when I was in the suburbs and my expenses went from 600 pesos to about 1300-1500 pesos in a matter of a year, and all that time the peso remained 3-1 to the dollar and inflation was still in single digits. The neighborhood had let things go for a while and there came a point where work had to be done and it was just at when I was in the house that they decided to do repair and maintenance work that, unfortunately, did not fall under the "extraordinary" clause (there was more additions done that did fall under "extraordinary" that I didn't have to pay for).

My current building has some issues that we didn't know about when we moved in and didn't manifest until this last cold spell. The furnace leaks gas like a sieve when the building heating is on. You step out of the apartment on a cold night, into the service passage where the elevators and front of our apartment is and you're almost immediately nauseated with the smell of gas (or at least from the trace chemical they put in gas so you can smell it). The gasista has come a number of times, can't find a leak, but all he tells the portero is "don't worry, it's not dangerous". I waver between dread that the gas company is going to find out and shut us down for a year and calling them myself.

So I can see now I may be here when they replace the boiler and the piping and all. I'll get to pay my part of that expense along with not having any gas for the rest of my contract knowing my luck. But at least I picked an area where the lights don't go out. Heh.