Fear of meeting

[Dougie]

Unfortunately, Delta seems to change this equation a little. The current lockdown in Melbourne is due to spread that occurred in the grandstand 10 days ago at a football game, which naturally has now seeded widely. Of course, those people weren't wearing masks.

There is still that .1% who catch it outdoors and being shoulder to shoulder for 2 hours with a bunch of screaming drunk people seems like that could do it, as does being in close quarters with coworkers all day constructing buildings.

I'm assuming most people who get together outside aren't planning on screaming in each others face for two hours or partaking in construction activities.

 

[FrankPintor]

...screaming in each others face for two hours...

Sounds like a normal outdoor bar in Buenos Aires, to be honest (particularly later at night).

 

[Dougie]

Sounds like a normal outdoor bar in Buenos Aires, to be honest (particularly later at night).

There is no reason to fear outdoor interaction if you have a bit of common sense.

If you put yourself in a position where you're two inches away from someone's face screaming for hours, then no amount of government is going to save you from your fate.

 

[¡Sencillamente yo!]

There is no reason to fear outdoor interaction if you have a bit of common sense.

If you put yourself in a position where you're two inches away from someone's face screaming for hours, then no amount of government is going to save you from your fate.

Dougie, There is an old saying that always made me smile. I'll share it with you and the board. Then my question is: Have you ever heard it?

Here is the old saying:

"You can't save a fool from (herself or) himself."

I always thought it was as cute as it was true.

What do you think?

 

[Alby]

There is still that .1% who catch it outdoors and being shoulder to shoulder for 2 hours with a bunch of screaming drunk people seems like that could do it, as does being in close quarters with coworkers all day constructing buildings.

I'm assuming most people who get together outside aren't planning on screaming in each others face for two hours or partaking in construction activities.

I agree generally. Personally, I am not too scared of outdoor meetings. It's the indoor ones I see happening that drive me nuts.

But another anecdote about how contagious Delta seems to be, the original source of all the current lockdowns in Australia (a transport worker who caught it off international aircrew he had collected from the airport) walked through a shopping mall a couple of days later. Not an open air mall, but presumably reasonably spacious and ventilated. Several days later, someone elsewhere in the city tested positive. They traced him back to the same mall. They reviewed the security camera footage and spotted these two strangers, in a random fleeting moment crossing paths as they walked through the mall, thus capturing the moment of contagion. That's all it took.

 

[Alby]

Dougie, There is an old saying that always made me smile. I'll share it with you and the board. Then my question is: Have you ever heard it?

Here is the old saying:

"You can't save a fool from (herself or) himself."

I always thought it was as cute as it was true.

What do you think?

Is that like this one?

 

[¡Sencillamente yo!]

No, I believe that may be something different.

The former president obviously stumbled during his speech, but I don't think he was trying to quote what I shared???

 

[FrankPintor]

I agree generally. Personally, I am not too scared of outdoor meetings. It's the indoor ones I see happening that drive me nuts.

But another anecdote about how contagious Delta seems to be, the original source of all the current lockdowns in Australia (a transport worker who caught it off international aircrew he had collected from the airport) walked through a shopping mall a couple of days later. Not an open air mall, but presumably reasonably spacious and ventilated. Several days later, someone elsewhere in the city tested positive. They traced him back to the same mall. They reviewed the security camera footage and spotted these two strangers, in a random fleeting moment crossing paths as they walked through the mall, thus capturing the moment of contagion. That's all it took.

Well, this is exactly the problem, isn't it? I hope I can put this out here, without prescribing a solution, and hopefully without some twit imagining me to be a Kirchnerite crank or whatever the insult of the day might be. The problem isn't you, or me, or Dougie or even Sencillamente, we all believe we're too smart to spend a few hours at an outdoor bar screaming in each other's faces, but with Delta, what if the guy who delivers your water or the girl you passed while she was restocking the shelves in your supermarket was doing just that the night before?

I laughed at the human dog-whistle Bullrich who claimed she caught covid at her Chinese supermarket, when it was clear she had done so organizing anti-lockdown demos, but with Delta the calculus has changed, hasn't it?

 

[¡Sencillamente yo!]

Well, this is exactly the problem, isn't it? I hope I can put this out here, without prescribing a solution, and hopefully without some twit imagining me to be a Kirchnerite crank or whatever the insult of the day might be. The problem isn't you, or me, or Dougie or even Sencillamente, we all believe we're too smart to spend a few hours at an outdoor bar screaming in each other's faces, but with Delta, what if the guy who delivers your water or the girl you passed while she was restocking the shelves in your supermarket was doing just that the night before?

I laughed at the human dog-whistle Bullrich who claimed she caught covid at her Chinese supermarket, when it was clear she had done so organizing anti-lockdown demos, but with Delta the calculus has changed, hasn't it?

Frank,

You make a valid point. (BTW - I don't believe anyone has a right to take you to task, your point is clearly valid.)

When you can criss crops paths with a complete stranger, walk past them inside of 3 seconds. That includes the approach, the side by side aspect, then the pass by. Inside of three seconds, each person is breathing and their body is moving air as they move along, it is quite logical, if one is infected / contagious, the other is exposed and probably infected either through taking their next breath, or rubbing their face with their hand that got exposed to the virus in the air.

Then on the other side, we have to get out into the world to do some essential stuff. How can this be avoided? 5 meters between people? Not going to happen. Face masks? They help, but they are ports on the level that transmission can occur.

Too many people have died, too much time has been lost, too much economic damage has been done. This is a nightmare scenario that is real. I don't see it ending anytime soon. This is going to be with us for a few more years is my best guess???

 

[antipodean]

Firstly I congratulate people like Bajo who do their own risk assessment and take their own measures to keep themselves and loved ones who may be at risk safe. The facts speak for themselves that neither society nor government will offer you as much protection as self-protection.

Personally, I tend to adjust my behaviour according the numbers. That worked for me so far, according to the tests.
Before the second wave I was out socialising every day and travelling all over (taking all reasonable precautions to minimise risk including outdoor meetings where practicable, friend bubbles, and avoiding encounters with "at risk" people) During the first and second waves I hardly left my home. After each time, leaving home was harder than usual but once you are active again it becomes less uncomfortable.
Some people I know need professional help to rebuild the confidence of leaving home again which is out there if you feel you need it.

Now, post-vaccine I feel that my personal risk of getting seriously ill is much lower and I put it on the same level as a flu, something best avoided.
The big difference however is that I am acutely aware of the risk to others should I be infected without knowing and pass it on to them - for this reason I still avoid crowded and most indoor situations and any close proximity to at risk people. In the event of a third wave am prepared to stay home again as much as possible, especially if it is Delta. I know first hand from family in other countries how risky it is for older people with incomplete vaccinations to end up seriously ill in hospital and how easy it is for others to spread it around.

In future, once everyone at risk in my community has had the opportunity to be fully vaccinated and lower mortality rates are a fact, my behaviour will be back to "normal". Am pretty confident that fairly soon the risk of death from being involved in a traffic accident (about 16 per day in Argentina/ 1 in Israel/ 5 in UK) or regular flu (about 89 per day in Argentina/ 7 in Israel/ 68 in UK) will be similar to that of COVID (currently 400 in Argentina/ 2 in Israel/ 42 in UK) depending on your age etc... Regardless, people will still remain free to choose whether or not they get into a car or choose if they drive carefully or recklessly as they are free to choose if they take precautions during flu season or not to minimise their risk.