For all those who like NK, CFK and the Abuelas de Plaza de Mayo

[darmanad]

To those more savvy about AR socioeconomic conditions than me:

Why is Argentina a poor country? What does it it mean to say that? It wasn't always a poor country in the sense of a national balance sheet. What made it poor? Was it the economic policy of Eva Peron which consisted of massive state funded programs (Keynesian) for the poor? Was that policy too much of a good thing? What part does corruption and an inefficient tax system play in keeping AR poor?

While the global financial crisis may not be affecting AR as acutely as it is other countires, don't you agree there is still widespread underemployment and poverty? There is a lot of evidence just from the tone of expat posts at this site that the non-unionized middle class is having a tough time keeping pace with inflation even as organized labor, e.g., GCT members and cab drivers, get 25%+ annual pay raises. What % of the employed are not members of a union? Will things continue to grow worse for the non-unionized middle class?

Is the current tax collection system adequate to produce the revenue needed to run and fund existing govt programs? Do you have any concerns for the welfare of retired people (and the peso) when the social security fund is depleted because it is being used to pay for current govt operating expenses?

 

[Bajo_cero2]

Why is Argentina a poor country? What does it it mean to say that? It wasn't always a poor country in the sense of a national balance sheet. What made it poor? Was it the economic policy of Eva Peron which consisted of massive state funded programs (Keynesian) for the poor? Was that policy too much of a good thing? What part does corruption and an inefficient tax system play in keeping AR poor?

Well, this is an undeveloped country where population grows but the wealth produced doesn´t as fast.

On the other hand, the way it is distributed changed a lot because of last dictatorship government, we used to have the widest middle class in the world on 1973.

Our main issue is the external debt, it is too high. And this is regarding corruption. The main debt was created during last dictatorship government and during Menem´s which was extremely corrupt.

The tax system is working better since the K arrived to power, this is one of the reasons the economy is doing well.

While the global financial crisis may not be affecting AR as acutely as it is other countires, don't you agree there is still widespread underemployment and poverty? There is a lot of evidence just from the tone of expat posts at this site that the non-unionized middle class is having a tough time keeping pace with inflation even as organized labor, e.g., GCT members and cab drivers, get 25%+ annual pay raises. What % of the employed are not members of a union? Will things continue to grow worse for the non-unionized middle class?

Well, they should create a union. That´s why middle class usually are self employers. If you are an employed you are f..cked.

Is the current tax collection system adequate to produce the revenue needed to run and fund existing govt programs? Do you have any concerns for the welfare of retired people (and the peso) when the social security fund is depleted because it is being used to pay for current govt operating expenses?

This is a misunderstanding. Using this money is a free way of financing. During the 90´they took debts instead of using it and the external debt grew 100%.

Regards

 

[Amargo]

The tax system is working better since the K arrived to power, this is one of the reasons the economy is doing well.

The economy is doing *well* because Argentina is lucky in having vast areas of fertile soil and because China and India have so many inhabitants.

The reasons for poverty in Argentina is the lack of plans, models, long term policies. And above all because of Peronism and other populist mutations. The public expenditure is huge to maintain the army of ignorant poor people who vote them, an incredible number of public employees to keep unemployment figures low (including those of Aerolineas - the airline with the most employees per plane in the World) and obscure 'organisations' like the one shown on the video.
And if the money is not enough...then they print more --->inflation

 

[sergio]

Ignorance and presumption is a bliss for some people, and there is a few in this forum who do not have the minimum idea of what they are talking about.

Some of you are living in a cloud reading and absorbing information of the worst kind than any police state can feed you, I was wondering why so many usanias were so close minded in worldwide events and I understand now why. Also I understand some of the locals with their basic mosquito brains feed with fantasies and lies over all they lives, these poor souls don't know nothing else to reference themselves with real facts, but you guys/gals who believe that all the information from the so called free (brainwashed) world is gospel is really disgusting but not unusual so many years practicing.... So remember children, when you see a flash, DUCK AND COVER! and that kind of thing is not wonder when I read some of the opinions expressed here become evident that a progressive brain atrophy is getting worse as the thread progresses.

'
I find it hard to understand your English however I get the idea that you are defending the Kirchner status quo. I don't advocate Laissez Faire capitalism for Argentina. A reasonable European style social democracy is best however it needs to be run more honestly and efficiently. Above all, the people need education rather than pathetic little subsidies that keep them from getting violent and make them dependent on the state. Argentina used to be distinguished by its well educated middle class. There are far fewer educated people than there used to be. The public education system has deteriorated badly. At a time when the world is globalized and more competitive than ever, Argentina is actually worse than it used to be in the area of education. Read Sarmiento's Viajes. Well over a century ago he saw the need for Argentina to improve its educational system. He writes that an educated people "would never have voted for Rosas". An educated people would never have voted for the Kirchners. Populist slogans and US bashing will accomplish nothing. Argentina will not progress until its people are better educated. There is a lot the government could do to improve education, provide vocational training and create public projects to help employ people. This would be far better than paying people a few pesos and giving them a little food to attend a Cristina rally.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

The economy is doing *well* because Argentina is lucky in having vast areas of fertile soil and because China and India have so many inhabitants.

Lucky is a funny word for describing our natural resources.

The reasons for poverty in Argentina is the lack of plans, models, long term policies. And above all because of Peronism and other populist mutations. The public expenditure is huge to maintain the army of ignorant poor people who vote them, an incredible number of public employees to keep unemployment figures low (including those of Aerolineas - the airline with the most employees per plane in the World) and obscure 'organisations' like the one shown on the video.
And if the money is not enough...then they print more --->inflation

During Menem´s government they fired them all, and what was better? The debt grew double, we has the worst crisis, and so on.

What do you propose, another dictator? Because we know that radicales are useless. And there is no other option.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

'
I Argentina used to be distinguished by its well educated middle class. There are far fewer educated people than there used to be. The public education system has deteriorated badly. At a time when the world is globalized and more competitive than ever, Argentina is actually worse than it used to be in the area of education. Read Sarmiento's Viajes. Well over a century ago he saw the need for Argentina to improve its educational system. He writes that an educated people "would never have voted for Rosas". An educated people would never have voted for the Kirchners. Populist slogans and US bashing will accomplish nothing. Argentina will not progress until its people are better educated. There is a lot the government could do to improve education, provide vocational training and create public projects to help employ people. .

You should inform your self better. No other government has done so much for education and science in the last 100 years. However, this is not magic, it takes time.

Regarding the social assistance you mentioned, some of this money is conditioned to children assisting to school. The 220 pesos poor people is getting per child is related to this. The plan about "1.000.000" net books for students too.

As far as I know, there are food stamps in the US as well, so why are you so obsess about our social assistance?

I have been living in the US on 2009 and I can tell you, education is better here in the big numbers, I am not talking about a 20 people program at Standford, we have public education, public universities, some are better than others. Only at law school we have 30.000 students. Do we need more engineers? Sure! You need more doctors and lawyers, then you will have a reasonable medical system instead of a ridiculous expensive one. So, every country have pros and contras.

You know, my former girlfriend had a food bud at the Maryland Renn. Festival. Do you know how difficult was to find employed who know how to give change? In the beginning I thought It was an expression, It wasn´t. They didn´t know how to add and subtract mentally. The US isn´t NYC.

Probably, because of this issue regarding the lack of proper education they voted Bush twice.

So, perhaps because of that Obama`s plan was related to improve the American educational system.

So, we are a poor country, what is your excuse?

 

[sesamosinsal]

Regarding education, it's pretty horrendous world-wide. I guess it depends on your definition of education, but I consider it a process by which people become thinking, critical individuals. Instead, education has become a way in which the State promotes the status-quo, only educating people in way that will be sufficient for the functioning of the system as it is.

Adding and subtracting is only a part of education. The other half, which is painfully missing, is the ability to question the system, to question the politicians, and to think of ways we can do it better. But why would you ever get that in a public university here in Argentina, the United States, or France? The State gets what it pays for.

I'm from the United States, so I can only speak on behalf of my experience there. University was a bit better than high school in the sense that the professors were more thought-provoking.

Public primary and secondary education in the United States is not education. They only teach you how to be a slave to the system.

One question I will never forget in high school was one I asked a teacher regarding the term "collateral damage." I didn't know what the term meant, so I asked my American Literature teacher. He said, "Collateral damage refers to people who died accidentally during war. It's regrettable, but it happens." I accepted the answer without question. It's just the way it is, or is it?

That is an excellent example of how American public education typically works. You are brought up the entire time to believe that the teacher is the "God of Knowledge" who can't be questioned. If you dare to ask a question, you have to raise your hand to get permission to do it. And because this teacher is the so-called "God of Knowledge," you're conditioned not to question the answer. After all, if the teacher knows everything, why would you need to question the answer?

I'm sure most college students in the U.S. can relate to the moment in class when a professor asks the students a question, and everyone just stares blankly at the professor. It happened countless times during my time in university, and that's because education, as we know it, is not a process of thought or critical thinking. It's a process of indoctrination and note-taking that has been beaten into our heads since Kindergarten.

Anyway, I do give Argentina credit. I'm not so sure how good the education here is, but at least the government has made it free and open to those who want it. American students tend to graduate in debt up to their eyeballs.

 

[darmanad]

Well, this is an undeveloped country where population grows but the wealth produced doesn´t as fast.
On the other hand, the way it is distributed changed a lot because of last dictatorship government, we used to have the widest middle class in the world on 1973.

Do I understand you to say that by "poor" you mean the absence of wealth distributed to people throughout the country? The national debt/balance sheet is not part of the definition? You mean to say that the average person doesn't have much wealth. Hmm. Where do you get your data?

Our main issue is the external debt, it is too high. And this is regarding corruption. The main debt was created during last dictatorship government and during Menem´s which was extremely corrupt.

I thought you just said that poor was defined by distributed wealth which didn't take into account the national budget /balance sheet. Are you now saying something different , i.e., poor means national balance sheet and deficit status?
Do you mean the military junta that ruled from 1976-1983 was financially corrupt as was Menem and that these administrations ran up the external debt? That by implication the De LaRua and Alfonsin administrations were not corrupt and didn't increase external debt? Where do you get your data?

The tax system is working better since the K arrived to power, this is one of the reasons the economy is doing well.

Was it you who said that workers en negra have no tax liability and that approx. 1/2 the work force is en negra? Is that better than the conditions that preceded K and, if so, how bad was it?

Well, they should create a union. That´s why middle class usually are self employers. If you are an employed you are f..cked.

Where do you get the data that the middle class are self -employers (self-employed?)? What % of them are? Is it right that those that are not in unions fall behind because of infllation?

This is a misunderstanding. Using this money is a free way of financing. During the 90´they took debts instead of using it and the external debt grew 100%.
Regards

If you repay it , it is free financing. If it doesn't get paid it is mismanagement. Is it being repaid?

 

[sergio]

You should inform your self better. No other government has done so much for education and science in the last 100 years. However, this is not magic, it takes time.

Regarding the social assistance you mentioned, some of this money is conditioned to children assisting to school. The 220 pesos poor people is getting per child is related to this. The plan about "1.000.000" net books for students too.

As far as I know, there are food stamps in the US as well, so why are you so obsess about our social assistance?

I have been living in the US on 2009 and I can tell you, education is better here in the big numbers, I am not talking about a 20 people program at Standford, we have public education, public universities, some are better than others. Only at law school we have 30.000 students. Do we need more engineers? Sure! You need more doctors and lawyers, then you will have a reasonable medical system instead of a ridiculous expensive one. So, every country have pros and contras.

You know, my former girlfriend had a food bud at the Maryland Renn. Festival. Do you know how difficult was to find employed who know how to give change? In the beginning I thought It was an expression, It wasn´t. They didn´t know how to add and subtract mentally. The US isn´t NYC.

Probably, because of this issue regarding the lack of proper education they voted Bush twice.

So, perhaps because of that Obama`s plan was related to improve the American educational system.

So, we are a poor country, what is your excuse?

'

The discussion was about Argentina but you turned it to the US. I find that is quite common among Argentines who resent foreigners making anything but the most flattering assessments of Argentina. The easy out is to find something critical to say about the US. I'm not going to get into that. The reality is that the level of teachers in state schools is not what it was a few decades ago. People of little culture are entering the teaching profession. Why are there SO many private schools? Even working class people struggle to send their children to modest private schools knowing that state schools are poor. The free university system has its merits but education has to start long before that. I do not see the advances you state the Kirchners have made in education. I see growing masses of poor people with many children not even going to school.

 

[Lucas]

'

The discussion was about Argentina but you turned it to the US. I find that is quite common among Argentines who resent foreigners making anything but the most flattering assessments of Argentina. The easy out is to find something critical to say about the US. I'm not going to get into that. The reality is that the level of teachers in state schools is not what it was a few decades ago. People of little culture are entering the teaching profession. Why are there SO many private schools? Even working class people struggle to send their children to modest private schools knowing that state schools are poor. The free university system has its merits but education has to start long before that. I do not see the advances you state the Kirchners have made in education. I see growing masses of poor people with many children not even going to school.

A bit of history...shall we?

Debt and Destruction South of the Border

In their well-researched paper, Serial Defaults and Its Remedies, Reinhart and Rogoff write "Cycles in capital flows to emerging markets have now been with us for two hundred years". If we are to understand the dynamics of serial default, it would do us well to look at these cycles and their relevance to what is happening today.

Serial Defaults and Its Remedies, Section 2.
Capital Flow Cycles and the Syndrome of "This Time Is Different":

..a pattern of borrowing followed by crisis is evident in the string of defaults during 1826-28 in Latin America that come on the heels of the first wave of massive capital flows from Britain into Latin America in 1822-25…A second wave of capital flows from Britain came during the 1850s and 1860s. The cycle ended with the crisis of 1873. The next wave of capital flows into emerging markets coincided with the shift of the financial epicenter of the world from London to New York. Among Latin American countries, the borrowing binge of 1925-28 was [financed] with "cheap" money from New York. Capital flows peaked in 1928, the year before the U.S. Stock market crash ushered in financial and currency crises around the world and eventually an international debt crisis during 1929-33.

Argentina is at the very epicenter of Latin America borrowings and defaults and a cursory judgment may well lay the blame for such on Argentina. But understanding the past is akin to sedimentary sampling and a deeper reading of events reveals far more than the too familiar story of a spendthrift deadbeat nation borrowing more than prudence would otherwise dictate.

The capital flows from England and the US in the last two hundred years to Latin America were flows of credit, not money. The distinction is critical in understanding what has happened during the last two centuries. It explains the basis of the British Empire and current American power. It also explains the exploitation of Argentina.