France's crackdown on Romas continue, hundreds deported

AlexfromLA

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Paris, August 27, 2010

Agence France Presse said:
France today deported hundreds more Roma in defiance of growing domestic and international criticism of its crackdown on travelling minorities. Two specially chartered planes carrying Roma men, women and children left Paris's Charles de Gaulle airport and Lyon in east-central France and touched down in Bucharest mid-afternoon. "The police told us we could choose between leaving now, on our own accord, or be expelled by force later," said one young Roma man, who declined to be identified. "So we agreed to leave."

President Nicolas Sarkozy, citing concerns about crime, began the crackdown this month on Roma and other itinerant groups known as Gypsies and travellers which has seen police rounding up foreign Roma and tearing down illegal camps. Forty-eight per cent of French people support the government's campaign, an opinion poll showed on Friday. But critics accuse the right-wing president, whose popularity is at its lowest since he came to power in 2007, of trying to regain the political initiative with a populist and racially tinged law and order message. The crackdown has sparked fierce criticism at home and abroad, with French former prime minister Dominique de Villepin saying Sarkozy's policies had left a "stain of shame" on the French flag and were a "national indignity."

A United Nations panel this month warned of mounting racism and xenophobia in France, citing the Roma evictions, and the European Union is reviewing whether the crackdown is legal. The Vatican has also criticised it. Human rights body Amnesty International joined the international condemnation on Friday, saying Sarkozy risked fuelling stigmatisation of the minority group.

As Latin America moves progressively forward, the US and the EU move backward in time to a place where racism and xenophobia is common and forceful deportations by police squads are the norm. Where simply being a specific race or creed will cause disdain.

To all those who chose to live in Argentina and make it your home even though you might not have all the legal requirements to do so, just count yourself lucky. If you were somewhere else, things might be very different.

For whatever shame I might feel at the actions of the Europeans and Americans, I feel a great sense of pride that the South Americans chose another path, one which gives dignity to all it's immigrants and proves they see immigrants as human beings and not just excess refuse to be discarded when it is politically or economically convenient.

WAR SOUTH AMERICA !!!
 
AlexfromLA said:
As Latin America moves progressively forward, the US and the EU move backward in time to a place where racism and xenophobia is common and forceful deportations by police squads are the norm. Where simply being a specific race or creed will cause disdain.

I've seen reports of this expulsion in the past few days, but haven't read all the details. Owing to the EU's liberal cross border travel provisions it's not clear whether the Roma entry into France was illegal (do they have EU passports?), but the article does state their camps were illegal. I wonder what percentage of Portenos would favor elimination of Villa 31.

If the deportees were breaking the law by illegally establishing and occupying encampments, it isn't necessarily racism or xenophobia to deport them if French law provides for deportation in such cases. I'm pretty sure many, if not all, countries have laws providing for deportation of guests who violate the law. Are there any other groups occupying illegal encampments who have been treated differently than the Roma? Absent differential treatment it might be a stretch to call this an act of bigotry.

I think it is difficult to compare the prevalence of racism in No America and So America owing to the existence of a large indigenous population in the latter. There was a smaller population of Indian peoples in No America when the Europeans (mostly English) came over, decimated the natives, forced the remainder to live in mind-numbing reservations, and essentially eradicated Indian culture. With some infamous exceptions the native people of the southern continent have fared better. It could hardly have been worse.

In any case, de facto racism remains an issue for the US and lots of other places around the world especially Brasil and Argentina. Have you seen a lot of black people living in Buenos Aires? Many suspect that race does play a part in the facility to live as a permatourist in Argentina. Until just recently, the Argentine constitution required the President to be Catholic. Only due to Menem's Lebanese ethnicity was it amended (not sure what it now provides).

Racism is difficult to measure in Brasil owing to the great influx of African slaves and the crossbreeding with Portugues settlers that occurred during the last couple of centuries. Nevertheless, in Rio de Janiero where I spend most of my time, the overwhelming percenage of favela dwellers are dark skinned and the bottom rungs of employment (maids, sanitation dept, street vendors) seem to be disproportionately occupied by dark skinned residents.

There is no movement back to a de jure or institutionalized racism or xenophobia in the US. Obama's election in 2008 was the culmination of the bumpy road travelled by black skinned Americans, a road that began with a Constitution that countenanced slavery, to the 1857 US Sup Ct decision in Dred Scott that confirmed slaves as property without citizenship, to constitutional amendments in 1868 granting citizenship to all Americans regardless of color or creed, to the 1896 Sup Ct decision in Plessy v Ferguson upholding segregation, to the Sup Ct's 1954 decsion in Brown v Bd of Edu. abolishing institutional segregation. A road that continued through the turbulent 1960s but which ultimately led to passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, that banned discrimination based on "race, color, religion, or national origin" in employment practices and public accommodations; the Voting Rights Act of 1965, that restored and protected voting rights; the Immigration and Nationality Services Act of 1965, that dramatically opened entry to the U.S. to immigrants other than traditional European groups; and the Fair Housing Act of 1968, that banned discrimination in the sale or rental of housing. Is it any wonder that black skinned Americans were exhilirated with the election of a black man as President?

There is a growing antipathy towards Muslims arising out of the terrorist attacks around the world carried out in the name of Islam (9/11, London, Madrid, Bali, Mumbai, Chechnya, Somalia, Indonesia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, etc), but Islam is not a race. It is a belief system. The Muslim Arabs of Gaza have more genetic material in common with the Jews of Sderot than they do with their co-religionists in Iran. Accordingly, it is inaccurate to describe the growing anti-Muslim sentiment triggered by Islamic acts of terror as indicative of either racism or xenophobia.

The belief system that is under attack is an intolerant, supremacist ideology that divides all people in the world into only two camps, believers and infidels. All sects of Islam believe that the Quran is the divine word of god. All pious Muslims, including Sufis like Imam Rauf, are required to obey the Quranic command to establish a global theocracy governed by sharia law.

I have said this before, but it bears repeating. Sharia is homophobic and misogynistic and expressly denies equality under the law to all women and non-Muslims. It prescribes death and mutilation for premarital sex and homosexuality. Witness the sentence of stoning to death for adultery that is now on hold in sharia law Iran and the identical sentence recently executed in sharia law Afghanistan. Sharia denies freedom of conscience and freedom of expression in that it prescribes death for both apostasy and blasphemy. It obliterates separation of church and state by virtue of the governance by non-elected theologians.

What amazes me is that critics of Islam are often vilified as bigoted rightwingers. Surely the opposite should be true - those that support such a supremacist totalitarian ideology are the rightwingers.
 
AlexfromLA said:
Paris, August 27, 2010

As Latin America moves progressively forward, the US and the EU move backward in time to a place where racism and xenophobia is common and forceful deportations by police squads are the norm. Where simply being a specific race or creed will cause disdain.

To all those who chose to live in Argentina and make it your home even though you might not have all the legal requirements to do so, just count yourself lucky. If you were somewhere else, things might be very different.

For whatever shame I might feel at the actions of the Europeans and Americans, I feel a great sense of pride that the South Americans chose another path, one which gives dignity to all it's immigrants and proves they see immigrants as human beings and not just excess refuse to be discarded when it is politically or economically convenient.

WAR SOUTH AMERICA !!!


"dignity to all immigrants" in Argentina? this is a joke right? You are clearly blind to the reality of immigration in Buenos Aires and other LATAM countries.

And thank goodness Latin America is moving "progressively forward"...coming up with incredible new technologies and discoveries. Taking redistribution of wealth to a new high. Great security, great economy, great everything...down with the imperialists. Please...

And to compare South America and the US on "racism and xenophobia" is ignorant and incredibly stupid.
 
I'll be honest darmanad, I didn't read your post. It started going down hill when you made this about muslims.

Anyway. The European Union is currently checking to see if these deportations are even legal. Most people say they are not. And yes Romania and Bulgaria are EU countries and their citizens are EU citizens.

And I am not the one calling this racism or xenophobia. THE UNITED NATIONS IS.

I.E " A United Nations panel this month warned of mounting racism and xenophobia in France, citing the Roma evictions, and the European Union is reviewing whether the crackdown is legal. The Vatican has also criticised it. Human rights body Amnesty International joined the international condemnation on Friday, saying Sarkozy risked fuelling stigmatisation of the minority group. "

As is the Vatican as is Amnesty International.

So maybe I'm not alone in this.


darmanad said:
 
South American immigration law for South Americans is the most progressive in the world. Basically every South American is entitled to live in any South American country they choose just by being South American.

Yeah there might be racism and xenophobia in South American countries as it exists in all countries.

The difference is the government isn't the one actively using immigrants as a scapegoat. They are actually protecting immigrants, giving them equal rights. And what's more, South America doesn't deport fellow South Americans.

The US DOES deport it's fellow North Americans as does the European Union. Their governments also scapegoat their immigrant populations whenever it is politically or economically expedient to do so.

This is not my opinion, this is simple history.

As to the rest.....

Wow,

I'm pretty much just going to say you are ignorant and incredibly stupid. I don;t really need to say anymore. Circular logic is funny that way. Now go away, you obviously have no wish to discuss anything, just throw out half truths and insults.

good luck with that.
jaredwb said:
"dignity to all immigrants" in Argentina? this is a joke right? You are clearly blind to the reality of immigration in Buenos Aires and other LATAM countries.

And thank goodness Latin America is moving "progressively forward"...coming up with incredible new technologies and discoveries. Taking redistribution of wealth to a new high. Great security, great economy, great everything...down with the imperialists. Please...

And to compare South America and the US on "racism and xenophobia" is ignorant and incredibly stupid.
 
AlexfromLA said:
Paris, August 27, 2010



As Latin America moves progressively forward, the US and the EU move backward in time to a place where racism and xenophobia is common and forceful deportations by police squads are the norm. Where simply being a specific race or creed will cause disdain.

To all those who chose to live in Argentina and make it your home even though you might not have all the legal requirements to do so, just count yourself lucky. If you were somewhere else, things might be very different.

For whatever shame I might feel at the actions of the Europeans and Americans, I feel a great sense of pride that the South Americans chose another path, one which gives dignity to all it's immigrants and proves they see immigrants as human beings and not just excess refuse to be discarded when it is politically or economically convenient.

WAR SOUTH AMERICA !!!

Wait a minute Alex. Are you suggesting there's no racism or xenophobia in Latin America?!! Seriously?! There's definitely racism in Latin America.......it's just a lot more subtle and indiscreet, but believe me its there!! Case in point, why doesn't anyone know that Colombia is a 20%-25% black country!? Why was affirmative action and the idea of quotas such a big deal in Brazil a few years ago? Racism and xenophobia is just different in Latin America...that's all.

But yeah the racism/xenophobia is pretty self-evident in Europe and the US too, no denying that.

Ahh okay just saw your latest post. Seems like you're speaking more on immigration law. Though I would have to say Mexico has some pretty stringent immigration laws when it comes to their "latin" brothers.
 
I am mainly talking about Mercosur and Unasur, US client states don't count. Mexico has a right wing government. Nothing progrssive there. And I am specifically talking about immigration law and the governments use of deportations for politically motivated reasons.

They use immigrant deportations for political points and this is what creates xenophobia among the population.

Racism and xenophobia exists EVERYWHERE, but in South America, the governments actively protect their immigrants, their rights and don't deport them. They give them freedom of movement and dignity.

Now compare that with what the US and the EU are currently doing with their immigrants ? They are scapegoating them and using deportations to rile up their own political bases thereby creating more stigma and xenophobia.

I am not saying this, The United Nations, the Vatican and Amnesty International is saying this.

Ok I've made my point, not going to repeat it again because a few couldn't follow.
 
darmanad said:
I've seen reports of this expulsion in the past few days, but haven't read all the details. Owing to the EU's liberal cross border travel provisions it's not clear whether the Roma entry into France was illegal (do they have EU passports?), but the article does state their camps were illegal. I wonder what percentage of Portenos would favor elimination of Villa 31.

Hungary and Bulgaria are now EU but their people don't have freedom of movement within the EU. These Roma might be holding passports of these countries. Most likely, they hold no papers at all. And while there is doubtless racism and xenophobia at work it's only fair to mention that there is a higher incidence of crime associated with Roma -- they can be found engaged in stealing, pickpocketing and begging throughout Europe.


There is a growing antipathy towards Muslims arising out of the terrorist attacks around the world carried out in the name of Islam (9/11, London, Madrid, Bali, Mumbai, Chechnya, Somalia, Indonesia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, etc), but Islam is not a race. It is a belief system. The Muslim Arabs of Gaza have more genetic material in common with the Jews of Sderot than they do with their co-religionists in Iran. Accordingly, it is inaccurate to describe the growing anti-Muslim sentiment triggered by Islamic acts of terror as indicative of either racism or xenophobia.

Brown-skinned people in general -- from the Middle East and India -- are caught in the net in Europe and North America regardless of whether they are or are not moslem. In this respect the USA is much worse than Europe.

The belief system that is under attack is an intolerant, supremacist ideology that divides all people in the world into only two camps, believers and infidels. All sects of Islam believe that the Quran is the divine word of god. All pious Muslims, including Sufis like Imam Rauf, are required to obey the Quranic command to establish a global theocracy governed by sharia law.

blah blah blah

Give us a break, Darmanad. It wearies both the eye and the soul to keep reading the same old time and again.
 
Haha,

Thank you wolf. I was waiting for someone to catch that. You are correct, even though Romania and Bulgaria are EU countries they are not part of the Schengen Agreement. Still, They do have freedom of movement, IE visa free travel.

The second point you make is the problem. These deportations amount to " collective punishment ". They are deporting families, not criminal gangs. The are deporting men women and children regardless of criminal background.

The EU is still investigating to see how legal or illegal these actions are, even though pretty much every human rights org and the UN have already condemned France's actions.

We will see in the coming weeks just how legal all this was, even though there is no doubt this is immoral and politically motivated. And a democratic government should be above this. It really is a huge stain on the face of Europe and it shows the world the ugly side of government sponsored racism and xenophobia.




bigbadwolf said:
Hungary and Bulgaria are now EU but their people don't have freedom of movement within the EU. These Roma might be holding passports of these countries. Most likely, they hold no papers at all. And while there is doubtless racism and xenophobia at work it's only fair to mention that there is a higher incidence of crime associated with Roma -- they can be found engaged in stealing, pickpocketing and begging throughout Europe.
 
AlexfromLA said:
I'll be honest darmanad, I didn't read your post. It started going down hill when you made this about muslims.
Anyway. The European Union is currently checking to see if these deportations are even legal. Most people say they are not. And yes Romania and Bulgaria are EU countries and their citizens are EU citizens.
And I am not the one calling this racism or xenophobia. THE UNITED NATIONS IS.

I.E " A United Nations panel this month warned of mounting racism and xenophobia in France, citing the Roma evictions, and the European Union is reviewing whether the crackdown is legal. The Vatican has also criticised it. Human rights body Amnesty International joined the international condemnation on Friday, saying Sarkozy risked fuelling stigmatisation of the minority group. "

As is the Vatican as is Amnesty International.
So maybe I'm not alone in this.
And maybe you are. The fact of the matter is you have not provided any evidence that you are not alone.
Exactly what is the United Nations panel saying about the Roma evictions, and what panel would that be? Neither you nor the press piece say what the UN panel is actually saying. "A UN panel warned of mounting racisim and xenophobia citing the Roma evictions" is hardly evidence that the Roma evictions can fairly be described as racist or xenophobic. Neither is a pending reveiw. What exactly has the Vatican said? A lot of innuendo and the absence of probative facts prevents me from agreeing that France's actions can fairly be described as racist or xenophobic. Specifically, did the Roma have valid passports? Were those who agreed the offer of a free plane ride out of France breaking the law? Did any of the Roma contest the state action? Have other non-Roma groups been afforded better treatment?

Incidentally, for many western/democratically-oriented thinkers the United Nations has lost all moral persuasiveness since it has become dominated by certain blocs like the OIC. To ipso facto believe a certain position has real merit simply because a UN panel or even the general assembly has endorsed it is no longer as morally persuasive as it once was...although it provides a patina of political correctness in support of an otherwise unsupported and unsupportable position.

It's your prerogative not to read my or anyone else's post, but don't you think it's kind of silly to argue the points contained in the ignored posts? If, as it appears, you never got passed the heading of mine, let me take this opportunity (if you are reading this, that is) to reply to your preemptive condemnation of what I wrote. Most people who now charge the US is guilty of racism would be referencing the frenzied debate about the Ground Zero Mosque. My heading simply gave the reader a heads up about that part of your accusation. I hope other people who come across this thread will be more open-minded than you seem to be.
 
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