France's crackdown on Romas continue, hundreds deported

illegalimmigrationimage.jpg
 
orwellian said:
You mean he demands that he can work in the country that you stole from him?
Click to expand...

Mexican-American war. If it was indeed "stolen" then its fair to say that a great deal of land redistributed in the aftermath of war has been "stolen", including the Paraguayan land "stolen" by Argentina and Brazil in the aftermath of the Paraguayan war.

That's not to say the cartoon is pretty ignorant.
 
I noticed that debates on this "Romas issue in France" never go anywhere but to Godwin point (which has not been reached yet here). Anyways, I think it's important to highlight a few facts, wether you believe it's legal or moral.

Romas have been in France for years. Some steal, some beg, some settle in illegal camps. In any case, it's impossible to say if they're responsible for more crime than the "average joe" as there's no racial statistics here.

I think what's crucial in this issue is what lies in national politics and I'm note sure outsiders perceived it that way. The right-wing majority in France has been struggling for several months because of alleged scandals (mostly embezzlement), the biggest one being a collusion between one minister and the heir of cosmetic group L'Oréal (wealthiest lady in France). I can't come back on every aspects of the alleged scandal but it was all over the media this summer (the minister has been heard several times by a judge and some politicians adopted a strong anti-media position that sounded weird to people who believe in freedom of speech). Huge financial scandal, a minister threatened, and unfortunately he was in charge of shaping the new retirement policy, the biggest reform of Sarkozy's term yet...

There was an urgent need for a "counter-fire" and guess what the government found? The "Romas problem" (which is part of a wider strategy on "insecurity") leading to the destruction of illegal camps and deportations of people in Romania. I'm not arguing about the legality of what has been done, European institutions are better than me for that. What strikes me is that it's really a shame to use such grave issues as "political tricks". There are human beings involved, it obivously fosters xenophobia, and besides it's an issue that should be discussed on a European scale. It reveals a very crude way of doing politics, quite in a Berlusconian fashion. It's cynic and injurious to people who deal with specific political problems (in associations, city counsels, parliament and parties) on a day to day basis, far from the television gimmicks. I believe in modesty and reasoning in politics, you don't just take an important topic and throw it vindictively to clean your shit.

This story revealed that the French government doesn't refuse to play with dangerous and unstable social matters for its own profit. It's unnacceptable in a democratic country.

By the way, did you know the home secretary was charged for racial offense in june and is still at the government?
 
Robino said:
I think what's crucial in this issue is what lies in national politics and I'm note sure outsiders perceived it that way. The right-wing majority in France has been struggling for several months because of alleged scandals (mostly embezzlement), the biggest one being a collusion between one minister and the heir of cosmetic group L'Oréal (wealthiest lady in France). I can't come back on every aspects of the alleged scandal but it was all over the media this summer (the minister has been heard several times by a judge and some politicians adopted a strong anti-media position that sounded weird to people who believe in freedom of speech). Huge financial scandal, a minister threatened, and unfortunately he was in charge of shaping the new retirement policy, the biggest reform of Sarkozy's term yet...

There was an urgent need for a "counter-fire" and guess what the government found? The "Romas problem" (which is part of a wider strategy on "insecurity") leading to the destruction of illegal camps and deportations of people in Romania. I'm not arguing about the legality of what has been done, European institutions are better than me for that. What strikes me is that it's really a shame to use such grave issues as "political tricks". There are human beings involved, it obivously fosters xenophobia, and besides it's an issue that should be discussed on a European scale. It reveals a very crude way of doing politics, quite in a Berlusconian fashion. It's cynic and injurious to people who deal with specific political problems (in associations, city counsels, parliament and parties) on a day to day basis, far from the television gimmicks. I believe in modesty and reasoning in politics, you don't just take an important topic and throw it vindictively to clean your shit.

This story revealed that the French government doesn't refuse to play with dangerous and unstable social matters for its own profit. It's unnacceptable in a democratic country.

By the way, did you know the home secretary was charged for racial offense in june and is still at the government?
Click to expand...

None of this surprises me and I don't think Sarkozy is any better than Berlusconi. Race prejudice, race paranoia, and xenophobia lie at the roots of the European outlook. Jews, moslems, Romas have all been on the receiving end.
 
bigbadwolf said:
None of this surprises me and I don't think Sarkozy is any better than Berlusconi. Race prejudice, race paranoia, and xenophobia lie at the roots of the European outlook. Jews, moslems, Romas have all been on the receiving end.
Click to expand...

I don't think previous French Presidents did that before in the post-WWII era, that's why so many French people as well as foreigners are outraged. Our previous presidents had more an image of "wise men" that never compromised with far-right ideas for political purpose. Sarkozy does that and it's disgusting. I don't think it's going to lean towards a Berlusconian system though, Sarkozy's not as powerful as El Cavaliere, most of the traditional right wouldn't support someone as outrageous as Berlusconi here. But you never know, in time of crisis (and France has been hit hard) far-right ideas always grow and can become mainstream quite fast...

It's cliché but one of the reason I'm moving for a while is the political environment in France right now. I'm not saying it's better in Argentina, I don't know much about it and I could have moved in another country in fact, but you feel less concerned while abroad.
 
bigbadwolf said:
None of this surprises me and I don't think Sarkozy is any better than Berlusconi. Race prejudice, race paranoia, and xenophobia lie at the roots of the European outlook. Jews, moslems, Romas have all been on the receiving end.
Click to expand...

While I agree that Sarkozy is any better than Berlusconi (I even voted for Sarkozy and I must admit I feel quite stupid now...), I don't agree at all that xenophobia is specific to Europe or that France is a bad example (or has been a bad example since the actual Roma story is definitely ugly. Robino summarized perfectly the global story).

I consider France as some kind of big laboratory : Highest Muslim population in Europe (6 to 7 millions = nearly 10% of the population), Highest Jewish population (around 600.000 : highest population after the US, Israël excepted of course).

Another problem that will affect soon every occidental country is the voting population. It is getting older and older and represents an higher and higher percentage over the years. While people in their 20s (before they start paying taxes btw :D ) usually lean on the left side, people over 70 lean more on the right side. One of the reasons Sarkozy got elected is because he focused on themas that are sensitive for older people (security, etc...).

I am 40 and I must say that our generation has not been really lucky (well, at least we didn't have to go to war, good point). Our parents were babyboomers, they benefited from a great employment rate, it was damn easy to buy yourself an appartment back in the 60s/early 70s (with inflation and so on...).

Too (this is valid for France and some other European countries, not the US), the babyboomers generation installed a "repartition system" for when they retire. It simply consists in making pay the following generations. All in all, they were damn lucky.

So what got the generation born in the 1960s-1970s :
- Entered the job market in the late 1980s (crisis).
- Started paying for the pensions of the babyboomers.
- Got hitted again in the early 2000 (another crisis)
- Then hitted again in 2008-now (another crisis)
- Still paying the pensions of the babyboomers
- We will never receive pensions following the same plan (we need too to start sparing money for our own pension)
- Meanwhile it has become very difficult to buy yourself a home (unless you take a 30 years mortgage).

Oh well... Sorry I diverted from the original topic :p
 
French jurist said:
Oh well... Sorry I diverted from the original topic :p
Click to expand...

Yours was an enjoyable post and I enjoyed reading it. To be even-handed I have to point out that moslems (Moroccans, Algerians, and so on) seem to be part of one huge underclass that isn't going anywhere in terms of education or assimilation to cultural mores. Romas are the same. European Jews were very different (disclaimer: I'm not Jewish).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top