Got into a scuffle with three chorros at Starbucks- will they seek revenge?

[antipodean]

I get there is lots of poverty but it seems like these people are always Argentinos. What is preventing them from working jobs like all the Venezuelans here? Dog walking, Rappi, waiting tables, mover, whatever.

While there is no denying that some Argentines have too much entitlement and not enough work ethic or ambition, while others simply see crime as a get rich quick strategy, not every one is the same and as always there are different shades of poor.

Firstly, if you can afford a plane or bus from Venezuela or Colombia to Argentina, while it may not seem like much at all, you can probably afford a mobile phone and a bike or whatever you need to start making a living for yourself. Perhaps most importantly, you probably also have enough ambition, education, life skills and experience to know what it takes to move country, find a job and interact positively with other people to then sustain that job and improve your life.

It's easy to say "get a job like Rappi" if you fail to consider just how bad is the poverty that millions of Argentines face:

• They have zero money - cannot access credit and cannot save
• Don't have a cell phone of their own
• Don't have their own means of transportation
• Live 40kms+ away from where job opportunities (and the rich people who need rappi deliveries or dogs walked) are concentrated
• Live in slum conditions just as bad as those in the poorest countries of Africa or Latin America
• Live in areas with rampant drug, alcohol, physical and sexual abuse (meaning, interpersonal skills suffer)
• Live in areas without paved roads (meaning, when it rains it is difficult to leave / use a bike/ walk)
• Lack enough food to have at least one solid meal every day
• Lack basic education
• Lack work experience
• Lack security (have a bike or cheap little smart phone in the conurbano makes you just as much of a target as a rich North American at Starbucks... only there people tend to use guns and knives more often since there are less CCTVs or police on patrol)
• Lack basic sanitation and clean water (meaning, you spend a lot of time fetching water to drink and bathe in)
• Lack child care
• Suffer generational issues of unemployment and being unskilled, meaning no one is there to teach life skills or mentor them - it is the life they have always known

I can speak from experience that workers from this background tend to be way rougher, higher maintenance in terms of instruction and supervision required due lack of basic education and interpersonal skills, plus they find it difficult to hold down regular work schedules due to the serious issues they face at home. Many employers just won't bother giving them a chance even if they had job vacancies going. For this reason foreign workers often have a more competitive position and slightly stronger starting point even if they don't realise it or feel that their own life is a struggle - they are seen as a class above and generally have a higher material wealth and privilege to start with to be able to go out and earn a living in one of these ways.

 

[cuando_volverá]

I live in Palermo near Palermo Chico. They looked typical chorros, but not particularly dangerous since they didn’t stay to fight even though they outnumbered me. They were weirdly obedient when I screamed gtfo. But I feel like if I did the same thing to three punks from some El Salvadoran gang, their honor system would require killing me or beating me up at least.

I go to this Starbucks like 2x a day, never had anything like this happen.

I didn’t call the police. The employees at Starbucks just were gathered near me and stood in there in shock. I told a friend about it, who said I could be the one in trouble for getting violent when they just tried to steal my phone.

I used to live on Salguiero and Castex. Right by the Starbucks you are probably referring to. I wouldn't worry about reprisals. It was just a crime of opportunity. In another country it might be different. There are some "high-profile" residents in that neighborhood. In general it's probably one of the safer neighborhoods of Buenos Aires.

 

[Alby]

Firstly, if you can afford a plane or bus from Venezuela or Colombia to Argentina, while it may not seem like much at all, you can probably afford a mobile phone and a bike or whatever you need to start making a living for yourself.

It was certainly an eye-opener a couple of years back when the Venezuelan waiter at the coffee shop, who I'd come to know a bit, casually reported that he was flying to Miami the following week to spend time with his mum and described its nightlife attractions in enough detail to demonstrate it wasn't going to be his first time. Not typical of the diaspora of course (in 2018 I saw a down-at-heel Venezuelan opera singer busking in Parque Barranco in Lima to the amazement of the rather more ordinary local competition, such as the omnipresent Michael Jackson impersonator), but interesting nonetheless.

 

[dilmah]

I think their revenge can be addressed to their competitors, not to their marks

 

[Dougie]

While there is no denying that some Argentines have too much entitlement and not enough work ethic or ambition, while others simply see crime as a get rich quick strategy, not every one is the same and as always there are different shades of poor.

Firstly, if you can afford a plane or bus from Venezuela or Colombia to Argentina, while it may not seem like much at all, you can probably afford a mobile phone and a bike or whatever you need to start making a living for yourself. Perhaps most importantly, you probably also have enough ambition, education, life skills and experience to know what it takes to move country, find a job and interact positively with other people to then sustain that job and improve your life.

It's easy to say "get a job like Rappi" if you fail to consider just how bad is the poverty that millions of Argentines face:

• They have zero money - cannot access credit and cannot save
• Don't have a cell phone of their own
• Don't have their own means of transportation
• Live 40kms+ away from where job opportunities (and the rich people who need rappi deliveries or dogs walked) are concentrated
• Live in slum conditions just as bad as those in the poorest countries of Africa or Latin America
• Live in areas with rampant drug, alcohol, physical and sexual abuse (meaning, interpersonal skills suffer)
• Live in areas without paved roads (meaning, when it rains it is difficult to leave / use a bike/ walk)
• Lack enough food to have at least one solid meal every day
• Lack basic education
• Lack work experience
• Lack security (have a bike or cheap little smart phone in the conurbano makes you just as much of a target as a rich North American at Starbucks... only there people tend to use guns and knives more often since there are less CCTVs or police on patrol)
• Lack basic sanitation and clean water (meaning, you spend a lot of time fetching water to drink and bathe in)
• Lack child care
• Suffer generational issues of unemployment and being unskilled, meaning no one is there to teach life skills or mentor them - it is the life they have always known

I can speak from experience that workers from this background tend to be way rougher, higher maintenance in terms of instruction and supervision required due lack of basic education and interpersonal skills, plus they find it difficult to hold down regular work schedules due to the serious issues they face at home. Many employers just won't bother giving them a chance even if they had job vacancies going. For this reason foreign workers often have a more competitive position and slightly stronger starting point even if they don't realise it or feel that their own life is a struggle - they are seen as a class above and generally have a higher material wealth and privilege to start with to be able to go out and earn a living in one of these ways.

Awesome post.

There are a lot of people that can't fathom the upbringing of those who grow up in slums in Argentina. It isn't so simple as why don't they just get a job and stop being lazy.

It's not to excuse criminal behavior or anything else, but it helps to understand why it's a lot more complicated then some want to believe. The problems as you describe stem from the state, family and culture. They aren't fixed with a choripan around election time.

Would be great to see a political party attack some of these systemic problems. Instead we have the virtue signaling Pagina12 crowd.

Poor immigrants always tend to be more capable than the poor of the residents of the home country.

 

[FrankPintor]

There are a lot of people that can't fathom the upbringing of those who grow up in slums in Argentina. It isn't so simple as why don't they just get a job and stop being lazy.

There are a lot of people that can't fathom the upbringing of those who grow up in slums in Venezuela too. I know several here who grew up in Petare, variously described as the most populous and the most violent slum in the western hemisphere.

To be sure, getting from Venezuela to Argentina required some money, $500 for the bus (+$500 to pass the Peru-Chile border), or about $1000 for the plane, when there were flights, plus whatever documents were needed in Venezuela, police and birth certificates, possibly fake yellow fever certificates, and so on. On a simplistic reading, you could conclude that Venezuelans arriving in Argentina are fairly well off, and have no business looking down on the unfortunate Argentinian villeros and others begging in the streets.

And yet: I would expect that any Venezuelan who arrived here in Argentina has brought at least 3 more, that's after arriving with almost nothing left over, getting set up, finding a job, maybe as a Rappi to start with, or waiter or on the checkout at a Chinese supermarket... and those 3 family members with nothing to their name will start on the same ladder. They're the people asking Fiscal's question: " What is preventing them from working jobs like all the Venezuelans here? "

 

[Greg S]

There are a lot of people that can't fathom the upbringing of those who grow up in slums in Venezuela too. I know several here who grew up in Petare, variously described as the most populous and the most violent slum in the western hemisphere.

To be sure, getting from Venezuela to Argentina required some money, $500 for the bus (+$500 to pass the Peru-Chile border), or about $1000 for the plane, when there were flights, plus whatever documents were needed in Venezuela, police and birth certificates, possibly fake yellow fever certificates, and so on. On a simplistic reading, you could conclude that Venezuelans arriving in Argentina are fairly well off, and have no business looking down on the unfortunate Argentinian villeros and others begging in the streets.

And yet: I would expect that any Venezuelan who arrived here in Argentina has brought at least 3 more, that's after arriving with almost nothing left over, getting set up, finding a job, maybe as a Rappi to start with, or waiter or on the checkout at a Chinese supermarket... and those 3 family members with nothing to their name will start on the same ladder. They're the people asking Fiscal's question: " What is preventing them from working jobs like all the Venezuelans here? "

Why doesn't everyone just head to the USA? Relatively open borders. Generous and growing social welfare programs. Large Spanish-speaking communities in all major cities. Jobs. Why bother with Argentina?

 

[FrankPintor]

Why doesn't everyone just head to the USA? Relatively open borders. Generous and growing social welfare programs. Large Spanish-speaking communities in all major cities. Jobs. Why bother with Argentina?

Right...

 

[Dougie]

There are a lot of people that can't fathom the upbringing of those who grow up in slums in Venezuela too. I know several here who grew up in Petare, variously described as the most populous and the most violent slum in the western hemisphere.

To be sure, getting from Venezuela to Argentina required some money, $500 for the bus (+$500 to pass the Peru-Chile border), or about $1000 for the plane, when there were flights, plus whatever documents were needed in Venezuela, police and birth certificates, possibly fake yellow fever certificates, and so on. On a simplistic reading, you could conclude that Venezuelans arriving in Argentina are fairly well off, and have no business looking down on the unfortunate Argentinian villeros and others begging in the streets.

And yet: I would expect that any Venezuelan who arrived here in Argentina has brought at least 3 more, that's after arriving with almost nothing left over, getting set up, finding a job, maybe as a Rappi to start with, or waiter or on the checkout at a Chinese supermarket... and those 3 family members with nothing to their name will start on the same ladder. They're the people asking Fiscal's question: " What is preventing them from working jobs like all the Venezuelans here? "

Poor immigrants are usually more capable.

As antipodean described the ones that leave their slums in Venezuela to come to Argentina are more motivated, ambitious, and capable than many that don't. You'll also find Venezuelan Uber drivers and waiters who have university degrees from Venezuela, but can't get a job in their studied field in Argentina for whatever reason.

You usually find other working poor have zero sympathy for other poor people who aren't working, or are criminals. If I can do it, why can't they? Criminal, shot them. One reason Bolsonaro won in Brazil.

 

[Dougie]

Why doesn't everyone just head to the USA? Relatively open borders. Generous and growing social welfare programs. Large Spanish-speaking communities in all major cities. Jobs. Why bother with Argentina?

US needs more immigrants to work entry level jobs. Open it up!