Guns & daycare

[French jurist]

If you're genuinely curious I'll be happy to explain my changed understanding of why guns are important for ordinary citizens to own.

Except you are not a citizen (first flaw).

Funny thread, 3 levels in it:
- Guns as a sport, in a ranch, why not.
- Guns as self defense. Why not again (better get a shotgun though... a bad shot could hurt your neighbour).
- Guns as CCW: quite tricky to get here it seems (and if the guy holding the gun is immature/paranoid/doesn't have the intellectual ressources to use it or not = ouch).


I wonder what the pro-guns opinate about the 4.000 kids getting their heads blown up by accident every year in the US.

Does it count?

 

[Iznogud]

FR. The shotgun as a SD weapon is an "american" concept.
Not really suitable for the type of building materials used here. You'll probably pepper yourself badly if you miss your shot and hit a brick wall. Besides, just get a stick the lenght of a shotty (legal lengths apply) and try to maneuver that in a small appartment. Not wise.
CCW is a no-no. Discussing it is futile.

Even accepting the figures you provide, I would not call them accidents.
Stupidity and negligence are better words for them.
I've read enough of your posts to even dream that you would chose to blame the objects instead of their owners.

 

[Crema Americana]

We're out in an industrial area. No neighbors, provincia police, lots of crime... so we have protection. It's something you hope you never need, but it does give some peace of mind that one isn't completely helpless.

 

[Iznogud]

FR, I also think that when referring to citizens, everyone but you was speaking in broad terms and not specific/local terms.

Your first flaw is obviously flawed. You are being "cuervo"-picky.

 

[KarlaBA]

I've thought a lot about having a firearm in Argentina or some of the other countries I spend time in. I am a very experienced firearm user in my home country with many types of weapons; however i have chosen to NOT have a firearm in Argentina or other countries i spend time in. The reason for this decision is rather complex. To view a firearm as a conclusive way to provide self protection from 'bad guys' is completely simplistic and wrong. 'Bad guys' happen upon you when you least expect it and if you spend any time fumbling around for your weapon, you are most likely either going to have your weapon taken from you and used against you or if they have their own weapon, shoot you instantly. Once you display a gun or indicate that you have a gun, you immediately raise the stakes in a tense situation to one where the other party feels like you are fatal threat and therefore should react accordingly - shoot you. Also, once you indicate that you have a firearm, the 'bad guys' could go away and come back with a gun or go away and later steal your gun. Quite frankly, if you think a firearm is to protect you, then you must be prepared to severely injure or kill anyone who you think is threatening you before they get a chance to show you their weapon. AND this means that you will inevitably kill someone who actually was unarmed; and thus you will be charged with murder. Unless you are prepared to kill and spend time in a very rough prison, it is not a good idea to have a firearm as a means of self protection. I know many examples that fit the scenarios i have described, and that is why i don't have a firearm in Argentina. If you encounter threats, most likely it is because the 'bad guys' want some property of yours. Just give it to them and let them leave. They are already highly jacked up on adrenaline, testosterone, and perhaps drugs. Don't do anything that leads them into making rash decisions. Be calm, non-threatening, and live to see another day of freedom.

 

[Iznogud]

Well thought and said.

 

[JWB]

I've thought a lot about having a firearm in Argentina or some of the other countries I spend time in. I am a very experienced firearm user in my home country with many types of weapons; however i have chosen to NOT have a firearm in Argentina or other countries i spend time in. The reason for this decision is rather complex. To view a firearm as a conclusive way to provide self protection from 'bad guys' is completely simplistic and wrong. 'Bad guys' happen upon you when you least expect it and if you spend any time fumbling around for your weapon, you are most likely either going to have your weapon taken from you and used against you or if they have their own weapon, shoot you instantly. Once you display a gun or indicate that you have a gun, you immediately raise the stakes in a tense situation to one where the other party feels like you are fatal threat and therefore should react accordingly - shoot you. Also, once you indicate that you have a firearm, the 'bad guys' could go away and come back with a gun or go away and later steal your gun. Quite frankly, if you think a firearm is to protect you, then you must be prepared to severely injure or kill anyone who you think is threatening you before they get a chance to show you their weapon. AND this means that you will inevitably kill someone who actually was unarmed; and thus you will be charged with murder. Unless you are prepared to kill and spend time in a very rough prison, it is not a good idea to have a firearm as a means of self protection. I know many examples that fit the scenarios i have described, and that is why i don't have a firearm in Argentina. If you encounter threats, most likely it is because the 'bad guys' want some property of yours. Just give it to them and let them leave. They are already highly jacked up on adrenaline, testosterone, and perhaps drugs. Don't do anything that leads them into making rash decisions. Be calm, non-threatening, and live to see another day of freedom.

Hi Karla, while you make some good points, there is one major flaw (at least for me). IF, I were ever in a situation where I had to "indicate" I had a weapon...the "bad guy" wouldn't have a chance to go away..or do anything else for that matter.

Being an experienced firearm person as you claim, I'm sure in any classes you took you learned that the ONLY reason to take out your weapon is to use it. I'm also sure you were taught that only a direct and deadly threat to you, your family, or someone else warrants the use of deadly force.

So, if someone wants your purse, sure...give it to them. But if someone were to threaten me or my family with ANY type of weapon, gun or otherwise...they best be prepared to meet their maker.

 

[KarlaBA]

But if someone were to threaten me or my family with ANY type of weapon, gun or otherwise...they best be prepared to meet their maker.

Here is exactly where your approach breaks down. You write this statement about what you are going to do, as you sit at the computer with a calm mind. Unfortunately when you actually presented with a REAL fatal threat, it will be with the element of surprise and your reactions will be fuddled and slow - too late, you are dead. So in fact, the only times you will be able to react and get your firearm trained on someone is when you have the TIME to do so, which is mean that the other person is actually unarmed, or else they would have shot you already. So you just killed an unarmed person in a country that doesn't look to highly on gringos or particularly on gringos with guns.

The only times when killing another person is easy, is when you have the element of surprise in your favor or when the other person is not a threat. In both cases, you are a murderer. And i don't want to be a murderer in Argentina.

There are millions of people, mostly men, who like to puff out their chests and tell you about how they are 'going to protect themselves and their family from anyone who threatens them'. Yes, a nice sentiment perhaps, but in reality you will fail. Why? Because you have no experience with this type of thing. How you imagine the events transpiring in your head are not at all how they will actually ever play out. The number of people who have their firearms taken from them is astounding; including many many police officers!!!

 

[Iznogud]

While I respect and understand your POV as expressed in your first post and also concur with some of the expressions and concepts forwarded in your last intervention, I must add they do not cover all situations or uses for a gun.

Shooting under mild stress conditions is hard enough, hitting is even harder. You are already at becoming a murderer... hoa!

A weapon should not be an excuse for a false sense of security, it's a grave and potentially fatal mistake. But particularly if you're a responsible and trained individual, it's an additional option I rather have than leave it completely to those who want to do me or mine harm and do not behave according to my personal morals or ethics.

Went unnecessarily overboard with the chest puffing and keyboard comando remarks.

We can peacefully coexist and agree to disagree, can't we?
There is no right or wrong answer to this question and there's no need to absolutely shove reason down the other's throat if they fail to adjust to our own (correct, deity approved) POV.
As long you are happy with your reasons and ethics, so be it. All is well.

 

[Lulu-Kyoko]

This seems to be a cultural issue-- as a Canadian, we don't have a culture of guns and CCW like Americans do (which is not to say that no one in Canada has a gun, just that it's not part of our public culture). I would never dream of carrying a weapon or bringing one with me, simply because I would never dream of doing so at home.