In Memoriam, Charlie Hebdo

[ben]

OK, so this is becoming a regular comment thread.

I did not simply accuse you of not 'having a grasp of the situation'. I brought to your attention a few points which put the lie to your disgusting - and I will repeat myself here - shockingly clueless, callous, and just crazy assertion: that Israel's claim of defending itself was like a rapist complaining of being scratched on the arm.

Rather than actually, you know, answering any of the points I brought, bringing anything new, or just trying to be respectful, you opted for:

a) name-calling: "Zionist Propaganda 101", "tired old excuse", and - get this - "ad hominem",​

b ) straw man arguments of Israeli apologists who say, "you just don't understand the situation". I did not say that, I brought concrete examples of what it is that you don't understand - though I now suspect that perhaps you understand perfectly, and are just trolling.​

So I will just go back to what started my beef with you: comparing the Jews in Israel to a rapist complaining of a scratch on the arm. Reread the points above: the massacres (just wiping out a community with no provocation - contrast with the 'genocide' you speak of), the wars, the terrorism, the bombings - all before there was a single Jew in the disputed territories, to say nothing of afterwards - then just reread what you wrote. Let it sink in.

Just shameful. Be ashamed of yourself.

=====

EDIT: You've edited your prior post, and added:

By the way, I wasn't attempting to discuss/compare what has happened to the Jews the past 100 years with my analogy. My comment was a response to a different post regarding how the Palestinians are currently being treated. I repeat that no matter what events the Jews have experienced the past 100 years, it doesn't justify Israel's current actions.

As I explicitly said, I wasn't attempting to discuss justifications of Israel's actions - in the context of what they're up against, I do believe they are fully justified, if they don't want to be butchered en masse - but addressing the callousness of your rapist-scratch-on-the-arm analogy. You can apologize for that and we're good.

 

[Sumie]

I may not agree with what you say, but I will die to defend your right to say it. - Voltaire.

 

[Matt84]

Your comment is straight out of Zionist Propaganda 101. I've heard this same old tired excuse a thousand times as a justification/explanation for Israel's current war crimes.

Are you contending that Israel's actions are not in self-defense? If Israel relinquishes further control of its border areas including the West Bank, Gaza, and the Golan Heights, it becomes quiet vulnerable to attack. An Israeli defeat could mean actual extermination of its people. Attack is not so unlikely given how volatile its neighbors are. Take Syria: what used to be a trustable, predictable, hostile military dictatorship is not slowly becoming a very different kind of state, one that is anything but predictable. So given that Israel is the only microstate with hostile neighbors, Israel is a Rogue State.

It is rather interesting and disquieting that Israel has so naturally replaced the original topic which did not include anything about Jews, Palestinians, or Israel. I can only hope it's a natural irrestitible tendency to "debate" (or to fight without consequences/ play?) because it's more fun than having a minute of silence or agreeing with each other about the unthinkable barbarity of what just happened.

Are we though? Do we agree with each other in our absolute, unmistakable condemnation of the asymmetrical attack of our press and basic freedoms?

 

[Caliexpat]

OK, so this is becoming a regular comment thread.

I did not simply accuse you of not 'having a grasp of the situation'. I brought to your attention a few points which put the lie to your disgusting - and I will repeat myself here - shockingly clueless, callous, and just crazy assertion: that Israel's claim of defending itself was like a rapist complaining of being scratched on the arm.

Rather than actually, you know, answering any of the points I brought, bringing anything new, or just trying to be respectful, you opted for:

a) name-calling: "Zionist Propaganda 101", "tired old excuse", and - get this - "ad hominem",​

b ) straw man arguments of Israeli apologists who say, "you just don't understand the situation". I did not say that, I brought concrete examples of what it is that you don't understand - though I now suspect that perhaps you understand perfectly, and are just trolling.​

So I will just go back to what started my beef with you: comparing the Jews in Israel to a rapist complaining of a scratch on the arm. Reread the points above: the massacres (just wiping out a community with no provocation - contrast with the 'genocide' you speak of), the wars, the terrorism, the bombings - all before there was a single Jew in the disputed territories, to say nothing of afterwards - then just reread what you wrote. Let it sink in.

Just shameful. Be ashamed of yourself.

=====

EDIT: You've edited your prior post, and added:



As I explicitly said, I wasn't attempting to discuss justifications of Israel's actions - in the context of what they're up against, I do believe they are fully justified, if they don't want to be butchered en masse - but addressing the callousness of your rapist/scratch-on-the-arm analogy. You can apologize for that and we're good.

Haha you are funny indeed. I will not and will never be ashamed for calling a murderer a murderer. But hey that's just me. As so often happens on forums, people and their posts get misunderstood. I repeat, my post and analogy was in direct reference to the manner in which Israel is butchering the Palestinian people. You are attempting to twist it and apply it to where it was not meant to be applied. You can call it shocking, callous what have you, if only folks such as yourself reacted in the same way to the murder of the Palestinian people.

 

[ben]

Haha you are funny indeed. I will not and will never be ashamed for calling a murderer a murderer. But hey that's just me. As so often happens on forums, people and their posts get misunderstood. I repeat, my post and analogy was in direct reference to the manner in which Israel is butchering the Palestinian people. You are attempting to twist it and apply it to where it was not meant to be applied. You can call it shocking, callous what have you, if only folks such as yourself reacted in the same way to the murder of the Palestinian people.

OK I will try one last time before going to sleep and giving you the last word.

"Butchering" is a word that implies, at the least, wanton, unprovoked, one-sided violence. To use it as you do is to be either ignorant or a liar.

In the cases where you refer to Israel as committing 'genocide', they were in fact engaged in active combat with a mortal enemy, well-armed, bent on killing Jewish civilians - not soldiers. They state this plainly, they celebrate every time they succeed in this.

Israel's stated military goal is to reduce and/or eliminate the enemy's capacity to kill its civilians. Sometimes they miss. There were civilian casualties. Reasonable people can argue over the proper course of action when faced with a mortal enemy, armed to the teeth and firing at you, which is inextricably entangled in a civilian population. In fact, in Israel this is debated without end. But certainly there has been none of the carpet-bombing which would certainly be the case if the power structures were reversed, and which was perpetrated by the Syrian, Iraqi, and other regimes, indeed in many if not most Arab-on-Arab conflicts. Israeli soldiers routinely died because the Israeli rules of engagement were and designed to cause as few civilian casualties as possible, and soldiers therefore found themselves in much more dangerous situations than they would be otherwise.

Today - not 100 years ago, today - Israel must maintain an awesome deterrent or its citizens will die. It has not instigated a single one of the wars you callously and deceitfully refer to as 'butchery'.

To fire at me and my children, and yell 'murder!' when I fire back, even if I'm much better armed than you are, is to lie. To speak of the children around you when you shoot at me, and who are in the line of fire when I shoot back, is to be a monster.

Or maybe there are no rockets fired at Israelis indiscriminately? Or maybe those lives don't matter? You're not saying anything except hurl words like murder (and let's not forget, a rapist who complains of a scratch on his arm), so we don't know what you're saying except 'Israel bad'.

But as you said, hey, that's just me.

 

[polostar88]

Why is a thread about France now about Israel? Maybe has something to do with people who think too much about Israel...on both sides.

But since you do think about Israel consider this. All I want then is for France, Europe, and the USA to do what Israel does--to build a big fence that works, to call 3d world immigrants "illegal infiltrators," to deport, and for the govt. to actually try to work for the good of the majority, to openly proclaim that France is a French state for the French people--I would like European countries to be able to do all these things, and not be called Nazis. And I'm not being ironic, because I think all those things are good things, and Israel is to be praised for doing them. I just don't like it when people defend Israel but then call Marine Le Pen a Nazi or stuff like that.

 

[Caliexpat]

Are you contending that Israel's actions are not in self-defense? If Israel relinquishes further control of its border areas including the West Bank, Gaza, and the Golan Heights, it becomes quiet vulnerable to attack. An Israeli defeat could mean actual extermination of its people. Attack is not so unlikely given how volatile its neighbors are. Take Syria: what used to be a trustable, predictable, hostile military dictatorship is not slowly becoming a very different kind of state, one that is anything but predictable. So given that Israel is the only microstate with hostile neighbors, Israel is a Rogue State.

It is rather interesting and disquieting that Israel has so naturally replaced the original topic which did not include anything about Jews, Palestinians, or Israel. I can only hope it's a natural irrestitible tendency to "debate" (or to fight without consequences/ play?) because it's more fun than having a minute of silence or agreeing with each other about the unthinkable barbarity of what just happened.

Are we though? Do we agree with each other in our absolute, unmistakable condemnation of the asymmetrical attack of our press and basic freedoms?

Of course we're in agreement with regards to the press(which barely reports the truth anyway) and basic freedoms. We'll have to agree to disagree for now on the Israel/Palestine issue however.

I do not believe the excuse of Israel just defending itself. This is propaganda, pure and simple. This is a land grab and it isn't the first nor the last time that a nation has done this against a weaker foe. Is it really that difficult of an idea to entertain? Many governments, when given the chance, would jump at the opportunity to grab more resources even at the expense of killing another tribe, especially in the volatile middle east. But they would spin it in such a way as to make it look justified somehow in order to deflect condemnation from the international community.

How can anybody honestly say that the Palestinians are a real threat to Israel with all the advanced weaponry, money, technology and supplies the US has been giving it for the past several decades. Look at the squalor of Gaza City. The so called "rockets" the Palestinians have might be able to put a hole in the roof of your house. It's like going up against a tank with a bb gun. It's ludicrous. The only reason there's no peace is because the US & Israel don't want real peace. And why would they? As long as they continue to "defend" themselves they can accumulate more and more land. Isn't this obvious?

What I find fascinating however is that somehow someway, people falsely believe that Israel is beyond reproach, that they can do no wrong. This is just sheer and utter nonsense. Just even having a conversation such as we're having now could probably get some people fired from their jobs. Why must the topic be so off limits?

Israel Claims Nearly 1,000 Acres of West Bank Land Near Bethlehem
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/01/world/middleeast/israel-claims-nearly-1000-acres-of-west-bank-land-near-bethlehem.html?_r=0

JERUSALEM — Israel laid claim on Sunday to nearly 1,000 acres of West Bank land in a Jewish settlement bloc near Bethlehem — a step that could herald significant Israeli construction in the area — defying Palestinian demands for a halt in settlement expansion.

Peace Now, an Israeli group that opposes the construction of settlements in the West Bank, said that the action on Sunday might be the largest single appropriation of West Bank land in decades and that it could “dramatically change the reality” in the area.

 

[ben]

OK a few points:

I do not believe the excuse of Israel just defending itself. This is propaganda, pure and simple. This is a land grab and it isn't the first nor the last time that a nation has done this against a weaker foe.

1) Post Six-Day-War, Arabs were fleeing Israel, believing that Israel would do to them that which they would have done to the Jews. Israel implored them to stay. Hardly the behaviour of someone bent on a land grab.

2) The Israelis had far better claims than security if they wanted to keep all the land. Historical, religious, cultural, etc. If the hundreds of thousands if not more of Jews expelled from Arab lands could resettle in Israel they could certainly demand the reverse.

What I find fascinating however is that somehow someway, people falsely believe that Israel is beyond reproach, that they can do no wrong. This is just sheer and utter nonsense. Just even having a conversation such as we're having now could probably get some people fired from their jobs. Why must the topic be so off limits?

3) We are not talking about 'beyond reproach', or Israel doing no wrong. As I said many times, reasonable people can argue this and do so in Israel and everywhere all the time. We are talking about your insane and outrageous reference to a rapist complaining of a scratch on his arm.

How can anybody honestly say that the Palestinians are a real threat to Israel with all the advanced weaponry, money, technology and supplies the US has been giving it for the past several decades. Look at the squalor of Gaza City. The so called "rockets" the Palestinians have might be able to put a hole in the roof of your house. It's like going up against a tank with a bb gun. It's ludicrous.

4) Advanced weaponry etc from the US does not in and of itself guarantee anything. Witness US efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan. As to 'The so called "rockets" the Palestinians have might be able to put a hole in the roof of your house.', they are getting better. Just listen to what they say. And your suggestion is to wait till more Jews die?

The only reason there's no peace is because the US & Israel don't want real peace. And why would they? As long as they continue to "defend" themselves they can accumulate more and more land. Isn't this obvious?

5) On multiple occasions, the last time by Ehud Barak in 2000, Israel made an offer that would have substantially addressed all of the Palestinians' demands in negotiations. They went so far many considered the concessions outright surrender. The Palestinians did not accept the offer, and they did not make a counteroffer - they launched the 2000 intifada. Now-leaked calls and documents show just how afraid the Palestinians are of no longer having a grievance to pursue.

And 'why would they?' Because they're tired of wars, tired of insane security, tired of terrorism, tired of death. They don't educate their children about the never ending struggle. They don't teach their kids that Arabs are apes and pigs. How one-sided can you be?

 

[Caliexpat]

OK I will try one last time before going to sleep and giving you the last word.

"Butchering" is a word that implies, at the least, wanton, unprovoked, one-sided violence. To use it as you do is to be either ignorant or a liar.

In the cases where you refer to Israel as committing 'genocide', they were in fact engaged in active combat with a mortal enemy, well-armed, bent on killing Jewish civilians - not soldiers. They state this plainly, they celebrate every time they succeed in this.

Israel's stated military goal is to reduce and/or eliminate the enemy's capacity to kill its civilians. Sometimes they miss. There were civilian casualties. Reasonable people can argue over the proper course of action when faced with a mortal enemy, armed to the teeth and firing at you, which is inextricably entangled in a civilian population. In fact, in Israel this is debated without end. But certainly there has been none of the carpet-bombing which would certainly be the case if the power structures were reversed, and which was perpetrated by the Syrian, Iraqi, and other regimes, indeed in many if not most Arab-on-Arab conflicts. Israeli soldiers routinely died because the Israeli rules of engagement were and designed to cause as few civilian casualties as possible, and soldiers therefore found themselves in much more dangerous situations than they would be otherwise.

Today - not 100 years ago, today - Israel must maintain an awesome deterrent or its citizens will die. It has not instigated a single one of the wars you callously and deceitfully refer to as 'butchery'.

To fire at me and my children, and yell 'murder!' when I fire back, even if I'm much better armed than you are, is to lie. To speak of the children around you when you shoot at me, and who are in the line of fire when I shoot back, is to be a monster.

Or maybe there are no rockets fired at Israelis indiscriminately? Or maybe those lives don't matter? You're not saying anything except hurl words like murder (and let's not forget, a rapist who complains of a scratch on his arm), so we don't know what you're saying except 'Israel bad'.

But as you said, hey, that's just me.

Ben I'm not interested in arguing with you tit for tat. I said what I said and I stand by it.

You've obviously got a good deal of emotional investment in this topic. And yes, you also buy into a tremendous amount of propaganda that is pumped out by the Israeli lobby. That's not an insult or an attack against you unless you decide to take it personally. It's simply my observation, especially when you make false statements such as "well armed" when referring to the Palestinians. It's utterly absurd to consider the conflict a fair fight. You don't like my use of the word butchering. Perhaps you'd prefer the term "slaughtering" because that is exactly what it is - an outright slaughter. A fair fight is not 2000+ dead compared to less than 100 dead on the other side. Israel holds all of the cards in this one. They can choose peace right now if they wanted. But, of course, we all know that's exactly what they don't want.

War is the health of the state. Ten times more can be achieved under the fog of war than can be accomplished during times of peace. The Israeli/Palestinian conflict is not meant to be concluded - only continued.

 

[Matt84]

Good to know you condemn Islamic fundamentalism, you probably therefore see how dangerous and deranged it is. Israel is nestled in that environment.

This is propaganda, pure and simple. This is a land grab and it isn't the first nor the last time that a nation has done this against a weaker foe. Is it really that difficult of an idea to entertain? Many governments, when given the chance, would jump at the opportunity to grab more resources even at the expense of killing another tribe, especially in the volatile middle east. But they would spin it in such a way as to make it look justified somehow in order to deflect condemnation from the international community.

That thing above you just said is pure propaganda indeed. Now I see we have a true misunderstanding.
While obviously the foundation of Israel and the gradual migration of Jews to the Ottoman territories of Palestine constituted land being grabbed (after being payed for in voluntary contracts), or any way you see it, after the nation state was born and its borders were settled, Israel has had no further claims or plans of expansions into neighboring Arab countries, the reverse is true.
All the potential Israeli right wing expansionism is contained within the borders of what you call Palestine, so clearly you are under the spell of propaganda that makes you believe Israelis are insatiable land grabbers. For many decades the issue has been security and coexistence (if possible integration) with the Palestines.
Even If I advocated against Israel I could never imagine thinking that Israel actually wants to expand further, or that it would not accept an actual pace and security treaty if offered earnestly.
Just how far fetched are the fantasies you entertain, that Israel wants to invade the Syrian oil-fields?
Israel gained additional territory only in direct reprisal of being attacked, and in so many instances was convinced peacefully to give it back at the direct expense of its security in the hopes of actual peace.

Palestinians are generally accepted into America or Sweden when they can make the arrangements, but they can't cross the border to their fraternal neighboring Arab nations so easily as they have exhausted their patience for these Cis-Jordanians and only want one thing from them: to be used as a human buffer (shield and spear) against the grain of sand that is Israel. Perhaps without Islam the Arabic World would have treated Israel the way an Oyster develops a Pearl, but I am just daydreaming at 2 am.

How exactly can Israel choose peace right now? Is ISIS a signatory of the treaty too, because they have very suddenly become a concern too.