Is It Better To Be Fired Or To Quit?

[Davidglen77]

What ever you do, DON'T QUIT. You will not get anything extra nor will you get unemployment insurance from ANSES (it's only $400 pesos per month, anyway) you will only get paid your final salary, unpaid vacation and proportional aguinaldo. If you need a good labor lawyer I can refer you to one...there are ways to resolve these things where you can come to an agreement with the employer, so they won't end up paying you out as much as they would have in a lawsuit and you walk away with something in your pocket. DON'T QUIT.

 

[sleslie23]

Not in Argentina. If they fire him they need to pay him severance which is usually worth over a month's salary and can be worth several depending on how long he's held his job.

You are right, but I think he stated he'd only been there one year which probably means a month of severance. Better than nothing, but not a lot if you don't have another job lined up. And if they fire him with cause he may have to fight for it, which as you know, can take eons with the legal system here.

This was something that crossed my mind when I was leaving my old job. I had a close to 10 years with my old company which would have made a nice little goodbye present. In the end, I decided it wasn't worth the loss of face and quit. They still ended up paying me almost three months of salary. Still not sure why.

 

[Davidglen77]

This is what you would collect as severance if you are fired (sin causa):

1 month severance (for each year worked, or 3 month fraction) - after 3 months you are considered to have worked 1 year, after 1 year and 3 months, considered 2 years, etc.
1 month "pre-aviso"
Unused vacation days (paid out whether you are quit or fired)
Proportional aguinaldo (1/12th of your montly salary for each month worked during a 12 month period, not yet collected (semi-annually), paid out whether you are quit or fired)

So the minimum you would collect for getting fired without cause is 2 months severance, if you have worked there for more than 3 months, and less than 15 months. If you have worked there 15 months or more you would get 3 months severance pay, plus the other items I mentioned (vacation, proportional aguinaldo) they are also supposed to pay you "integración" which means to complete your monthly salary even if you are fired mid-month, so let's say they fire you on the 17th of the month, they are required to pay you the full salary as if you had worked until the last day of the month.

Read the LCT 20.744 (Ley del Contrato de Trabajo) Art. 231 covers indemnization. Again, DO NOT QUIT, if you do you will give up your rights. http://www.infoleg.g...5552/texact.htm

Labor rights in Argentina are strict because of past (and many times current) abuses by employers. Salaries here are quite low compared to the cost of living and compared to many other parts of the world where these same companies would be paying 4x (and in many cases much higher) that salary for the same worker. For that reason workers are protected by these laws.

For example, a bilingual call center operator in Argentina barely earns $5000 pesos (about $500 dollars) per month. According to the US dept of labor a bilingual call center operator in the US earns an average salary of $12.50 USD per hour, which is $500 per week or $2,000 USD per month.

The whole issue of labor laws is a hot button between right and left wing governments. It is true that strict labor laws depress the labor market, however, that is because there are many places in the world where companies can set up shop and pay pennies (mostly in Asia and Africa) to their workers and have them work under deplorable unjust conditions. However things are changing....I would say that within the next 20 to 30 years, Asian, South Asian and African countries will have a much higher standard of living and while salaries won't be the same all over the world the differences surely won't be what they are now and workers will demand better conditions. Things have a way of working themselves out.

 

[bdk1]

This is what you would collect as severance if you are fired (sin causa):

1 month severance (for each year worked, or 3 month fraction) - after 3 months you are considered to have worked 1 year, after 1 year and 3 months, considered 2 years, etc.
1 month "pre-aviso"
Unused vacation days (paid out whether you are quit or fired)
Proportional aguinaldo (1/12th of your montly salary for each month worked during a 12 month period, not yet collected (semi-annually), paid out whether you are quit or fired)

So the minimum you would collect for getting fired without cause is 2 months severance, if you have worked there for more than 3 months, and less than 15 months. If you have worked there 15 months or more you would get 3 months severance pay, plus the other items I mentioned (vacation, proportional aguinaldo) they are also supposed to pay you "integración" which means to complete your monthly salary even if you are fired mid-month, so let's say they fire you on the 17th of the month, they are required to pay you the full salary as if you had worked until the last day of the month.

Read the LCT 20.744 (Ley del Contrato de Trabajo) Art. 231 covers indemnization. Again, DO NOT QUIT, if you do you will give up your rights. http://www.infoleg.g...5552/texact.htm

Labor rights in Argentina are strict because of past (and many times current) abuses by employers. Salaries here are quite low compared to the cost of living and compared to many other parts of the world where these same companies would be paying 4x (and in many cases much higher) that salary for the same worker. For that reason workers are protected by these laws.

For example, a bilingual call center operator in Argentina barely earns $5000 pesos (about $500 dollars) per month. According to the US dept of labor a bilingual call center operator in the US earns an average salary of $12.50 USD per hour, which is $500 per week or $2,000 USD per month.

The whole issue of labor laws is a hot button between right and left wing governments. It is true that strict labor laws depress the labor market, however, that is because there are many places in the world where companies can set up shop and pay pennies (mostly in Asia and Africa) to their workers and have them work under deplorable unjust conditions. However things are changing....I would say that within the next 20 to 30 years, Asian, South Asian and African countries will have a much higher standard of living and while salaries won't be the same all over the world the differences surely won't be what they are now and workers will demand better conditions. Things have a way of working themselves out.

What David says is spot on. Also, as every one else here has pointed out, don't quit or get fired until you've found another job. It will probably take more than 2 or 3 months to find one so your severance + unused vacation + proportional aguinaldo may not be enough. People here almost never quit until after they've done the "análisis pre-ocupacional" for their new job (which generally means you're 99% hired).

 

[GS_Dirtboy]

He's not a Yanqui, he's a Canuck.

Thanks. Perhaps Canada has something similar?

 

[sleazemerchant]

You can always send a telegram "considering yourself fired" because your employer denied you your previously agreed upon job responsibilities and tasks; you can also claim that you are "mal registrado" meaning you are not properly registered with the AFIP according to your actual job description/duties. That being said, if your employer has half a brain, he will laugh in your face, give you nothing and fight in out in labor court, which will take anywhere from two to six years (or more) to finish. This obviously works to the employers benefit as the amount owed will be diminished by inflation and devaluation; at any time during this "starve the employee into submission" process a settlement can be reached, usually for much less than the employee is legally owed.

 

[syngirl]

Thanks. Perhaps Canada has something similar?

Well, considering we paid to ship out something like 20,000 Lebanese Canadians who had only lived in Canada long enough to get their permanent residency and then moved back home, I'd hope they'd help out a full citizen. However: Lebanon was such a spendings fiasco it led to some overhauls not only of the whole immigration procedure but also diplomatic services abroad. Canada is now actively cutting costs on embassies around the world (even doing embassy-sharing programmes with other commonwealth countries instead of carrying costs alone, and in some cases shutting down embassies and directing people to the British one).

I've had quite a bit of interaction with the embassy here, they are all very nice, but they'll follow process to a T, so I have a feeling that unless you are quite literally homeless, shoeless, out of all other options and with your passport as your only valuable, I think the Canadians kind of take a "well, didn't you eff up" position and direct you to charge your flight onto a credit card. I get the feeling they take the attitude of call your family, call your friends, call your ex, call your bank, then call us. I'm sure they do it all very nicely though, telling you "sorry" the whole way through.

 

[ARbound]

Honestly I do not understand why you stay in Buenos Aires if you hate Argentina so much. You can move to another country with little money (bus, bike, motorbike). There is couch surfing to find a place to stay for a couple of days and meet locals. I have hosted many travelers with cs and met people traveling around the world with a few bucks. If you want to you can make it possible.

Yes, but it isn't as easy as it seems, at least not for me. Worst case scenario that's the plan I guess.

Not in Argentina. If they fire him they need to pay him severance which is usually worth over a month's salary and can be worth several depending on how long he's held his job.



The following advice goes against my deep dislike of the overly litigious culture here. (side note: I always think its hilarious when people mention this as a reason they prefer Argentina to their home country.



They are completely 100% bluffing. It maybe difficult to prove, it may not be hard to prove but if the actually did tell you that they'd pay you and you did the work then they are in violation of contract. This makes the amount of severance you would be entitled to significantly higher. Not to mention if you feel like they're trying to exploit you due to your status as a foreigner, they could be liable for that as well since that is a protected class.

Talk to a labor lawyer right away. Almost all will work on contingency; this is because if you sue your employer and the court decides against you, your lawyer still will get his fees. 'From whom?', you might might ask. From your employer. Even if you sue and loose the employer has to pay your (and their) legal costs.

Most cases won't go to court, in Capital there is a mandatory mediation that must be attended by both parties before going to court (this is the case if you're fired, I'm not positive if you're just suing for unpaid salaries). This is where they will try and buy you off. You should ask for a significant premium on the unpaid wages which you'll probably get.

Once you start a legal process against them, heaven help them if they fire you.

Disclaimer: I'm not a labor lawyer or any kind of lawyer. My principal recommendation is that you first and foremost talk to a lawyer, after that I would recommend asking the moderator to remove this thread.

I think this is the best idea, speak with a lawyer. I'm looking for a contingency/one that doesn't get paid by me, for obvious reasons.

He's not a Yanqui, he's a Canuck.

Well both, but I've lived in Canada most of my life.

What ever you do, DON'T QUIT. You will not get anything extra nor will you get unemployment insurance from ANSES (it's only $400 pesos per month, anyway) you will only get paid your final salary, unpaid vacation and proportional aguinaldo. If you need a good labor lawyer I can refer you to one...there are ways to resolve these things where you can come to an agreement with the employer, so they won't end up paying you out as much as they would have in a lawsuit and you walk away with something in your pocket. DON'T QUIT.

Yes, I think even getting fired for a made up cause is better.

You are right, but I think he stated he'd only been there one year which probably means a month of severance. Better than nothing, but not a lot if you don't have another job lined up. And if they fire him with cause he may have to fight for it, which as you know, can take eons with the legal system here.

This was something that crossed my mind when I was leaving my old job. I had a close to 10 years with my old company which would have made a nice little goodbye present. In the end, I decided it wasn't worth the loss of face and quit. They still ended up paying me almost three months of salary. Still not sure why.

Maybe they wanted to prevent any sort of legal action, I don't know, but for my job I've been told explicitly I'm going to have to quit or I'll be fired with cause (I'm sure they can make up whatever they'd like for that part)

This is what you would collect as severance if you are fired (sin causa):

1 month severance (for each year worked, or 3 month fraction) - after 3 months you are considered to have worked 1 year, after 1 year and 3 months, considered 2 years, etc.
1 month "pre-aviso"
Unused vacation days (paid out whether you are quit or fired)
Proportional aguinaldo (1/12th of your montly salary for each month worked during a 12 month period, not yet collected (semi-annually), paid out whether you are quit or fired)

So the minimum you would collect for getting fired without cause is 2 months severance, if you have worked there for more than 3 months, and less than 15 months. If you have worked there 15 months or more you would get 3 months severance pay, plus the other items I mentioned (vacation, proportional aguinaldo) they are also supposed to pay you "integración" which means to complete your monthly salary even if you are fired mid-month, so let's say they fire you on the 17th of the month, they are required to pay you the full salary as if you had worked until the last day of the month.

Read the LCT 20.744 (Ley del Contrato de Trabajo) Art. 231 covers indemnization. Again, DO NOT QUIT, if you do you will give up your rights. http://www.infoleg.g...5552/texact.htm

Labor rights in Argentina are strict because of past (and many times current) abuses by employers. Salaries here are quite low compared to the cost of living and compared to many other parts of the world where these same companies would be paying 4x (and in many cases much higher) that salary for the same worker. For that reason workers are protected by these laws.

For example, a bilingual call center operator in Argentina barely earns $5000 pesos (about $500 dollars) per month. According to the US dept of labor a bilingual call center operator in the US earns an average salary of $12.50 USD per hour, which is $500 per week or $2,000 USD per month.

The whole issue of labor laws is a hot button between right and left wing governments. It is true that strict labor laws depress the labor market, however, that is because there are many places in the world where companies can set up shop and pay pennies (mostly in Asia and Africa) to their workers and have them work under deplorable unjust conditions. However things are changing....I would say that within the next 20 to 30 years, Asian, South Asian and African countries will have a much higher standard of living and while salaries won't be the same all over the world the differences surely won't be what they are now and workers will demand better conditions. Things have a way of working themselves out.

I hope things work out. I'd be happy to be fired without cause so I can put his all behind me. It's one thing to be screwed financially by your employer, another to be lied to, but an even worse one perhaps is making everything so hostile you don't want to be in the building. I'm going to look for a lawyer to help with this issue, they're the ones with the experience and know the system.

Thanks. Perhaps Canada has something similar?

More or less, but syngirl summed up my general experience with every layer of Canadian bureaucracy.

You can always send a telegram "considering yourself fired" because your employer denied you your previously agreed upon job responsibilities and tasks; you can also claim that you are "mal registrado" meaning you are not properly registered with the AFIP according to your actual job description/duties. That being said, if your employer has half a brain, he will laugh in your face, give you nothing and fight in out in labor court, which will take anywhere from two to six years (or more) to finish. This obviously works to the employers benefit as the amount owed will be diminished by inflation and devaluation; at any time during this "starve the employee into submission" process a settlement can be reached, usually for much less than the employee is legally owed.

That's something some people I know was suggesting, I best speak to a lawyer first.

Well, considering we paid to ship out something like 20,000 Lebanese Canadians who had only lived in Canada long enough to get their permanent residency and then moved back home, I'd hope they'd help out a full citizen. However: Lebanon was such a spendings fiasco it led to some overhauls not only of the whole immigration procedure but also diplomatic services abroad. Canada is now actively cutting costs on embassies around the world (even doing embassy-sharing programmes with other commonwealth countries instead of carrying costs alone, and in some cases shutting down embassies and directing people to the British one).

I've had quite a bit of interaction with the embassy here, they are all very nice, but they'll follow process to a T, so I have a feeling that unless you are quite literally homeless, shoeless, out of all other options and with your passport as your only valuable, I think the Canadians kind of take a "well, didn't you eff up" position and direct you to charge your flight onto a credit card. I get the feeling they take the attitude of call your family, call your friends, call your ex, call your bank, then call us. I'm sure they do it all very nicely though, telling you "sorry" the whole way through.

I'm sure they're nice (well, you never know, but you said they seem to be) but it's what you said, best case scenario if the bottom falls out I'll have to prove how desperate I would be at that point, which wouldn't be hard, just unhelpful.

 

[PhilinBSAS]

You can always send a telegram "considering yourself fired" because your employer denied you your previously agreed upon job responsibilities and tasks;

This is alleging "creative dismissal" by the employer which has recognition in some jurisdictions. Ask an Employment Lawyer on recommendation.

In any case preferably there needs to be a "paper trail" of evidence to substantiate your position/actions particularly if you are unlikely to get other co-workers to give testimony in support. So this should detail what responsibilities/tasks/terms/conditions you expected and were offered and how these have altered and the steps you have taken to get their attention.

Not easy and a time to be strong. Good luck.

 

[PhilinBSAS]

This is alleging "creative dismissal" by the employer which has recognition in some jurisdictions. Ask an Employment Lawyer on recommendation.

In any case preferably there needs to be a "paper trail" of evidence to substantiate your position/actions particularly if you are unlikely to get other co-workers to give testimony in support. So you should detail in writing for yourself what responsibilities/tasks/terms/conditions you expected and were offered and how these have altered and the steps you have taken to get their attention. Keep this record and update as you go keeping a note from now on of all conversations, incidents and dates. Specifically take a 'contemporaneous note' of any pressures they have sought to exert even if they are just your own 'perceptions' and note any witnesses and other corroborative detail.

These to be set out in summary and presented in writing and to give the employer an opportunity to respond and mitigate. Get confirmation of correspondence so they cant deny. If this leads to you being given the sack then bingo you are quids in already mate!!

Not easy and a time to be strong. Good luck.