Is It Time to Bail Out of the US?

[Matt84]

If "the greatest country on earth" can't figure out cheaper transportation inside cities, reasonable deliveries on education and health care, then sorry, you have lost me as a customer.

Bye Bye America.

The very fact that you consider yourself a customer of your country, is what makes it the best.

For example, if America had lost the Cold War, you wouldn't have such a choice like leaving the country. If education or healthcare were free, then the gov could use that as moral leverage for not allowing you to exit (as it happens in Cuba, etc).

America is NOT perfect, much like Democracy, it's the least horrible of all alternatives.

C'mon people this is Latin America, almoast every living condition we experience down here is a product of past American policies.
Just think that Europe would be either the Reich or Western Russia wasn't it for Anglo-American forces! Do you honestly believe that South America could be that autonomous?

Individually, to me, I believe that Uruguay is the best country in the World. But if I had to aknowledge what made Uruguay livable, that would be Europe, and what saved Europe? Bingo.

Congratulations to J on the other hand for his Chinese Nationalism. Timber is a good idea. I've heard Tungsten is as well.

Regarding the dissolving frontiers: Mercosur follows European model and they have explicit millitary and trade agreements. NAFTA would be like the European EFTA.

What I mean is MERCOSUR a lot more internationalist than NAFTA. For now.

 

[Ries]

If education or healthcare were free, then the gov could use that as moral leverage for not allowing you to exit (as it happens in Cuba, etc).

Just like in Japan, and Sweden, and Italy, and Switzerland, and the UK, and even, yes, Argentina, where, to varying degrees, BUT ALL MUCH MORE THAN THE USA, education and healthcare is free.

That moral leverage must be mighty powerful stuff- as it seems to work so well all over the world....

 

[bigbadwolf]

If education or healthcare were free, then the gov could use that as moral leverage for not allowing you to exit (as it happens in Cuba, etc).

Just about nothing in your post makes any sense but I haven't the time or patience to correct you. I'm writing from Norway at the moment, where education and health care are free, and where the centre-left coalition has just won another election. No Norwegian in his right mind wants to emigrate from Norway -- the government doesn't need to use "moral leverage." And in general, just about every country that still has a functioning welfare system, free education, health care will have a citizenry not at all anxious to emigrate. On the other hand, I personally know many Americans who are anxious to leave the United States and would jump at the prospect of acquiring an EU passport. Many American expats in Argentina are there precisely because they find living in the USA too difficult today.

 

[Matt84]

Just like in Japan, and Sweden, and Italy, and Switzerland, and the UK, and even, yes, Argentina, where, to varying degrees, BUT ALL MUCH MORE THAN THE USA, education and healthcare is free.

That moral leverage must be mighty powerful stuff- as it seems to work so well all over the world....

It works constanstly. In my example, there's a difference between saying to a Cuban, or East German: "You can't leave because your are a virtual prisioner of the State" and "You can't leave after all the State has done for you" (specially when it's true). In the first case the person feels even more compelled to leave, while in the second case he/she seriously considers whether what he's doing is right. The term Brain-drain originated from exactly such a situation, and that moral leverage was essential for the Socialist states that didn't want to empty their ammo preventing their populations from escaping their respective Glorious Fatherlands.

All I'm asking is a little bit of historic perspective. What happened last century? Wasn't liberalism at inmense risk during the 30s? Wasn't there a single power that kept it alive?

Do you remember the alternatives? Fascism or Socialism

By the way, Norway is oil-rich, has a homogeneous population, is NOT part of the Eurozone but of EFTA, and is a specific example given by Milton Friedman of why Social Democracy seems to work in some places.

Actually Norway and Switzerland, are the only two Western European countries that are almoast free from the E.U. Switzerland is on the top 5 of the economic freedom index, and Norway ahead of all Scandinavia.

It's always been hard to live in America (or elsewhere), and people have always been inmigrating and emigrating from the land. While some people enjoyed a so called golden generation, millions of Central Europeans were struggling to begin a new life in the States. It's always been difficult. So? Mexicans have plenty free education and healthcare in Mexico, and yet thousends each year trade it off for a little bit more of economic freedom.

So yes, there are some non-totalitarian countries that nominally offer free tomographies et al. Let's review them. Japan, Italy. Both were part of the axis, in fact Fascism originated in Italy. The idea was for the individual to toil for the mighty state, not the other way around. I'm pretty it was Americans who changed their ways, by retaliatory force.

Sweden and Switzerland: Collaborators (the Swedes didn't even have a choice, that's why they just tossed the Nazis a right of passage to invade their cousins in Norway).

In other words, all these Social Democracies, either used to be National Socialist or would have been wasn't it for America.

The UK, we don't know for how long they would have resisted, but their colonies were either useless or turning against them, and siding with Japan.

Argentina, following Vatican diplomatic principles, was just waiting to see who was going to win the match, and align with the "correct" team 5 minutes before it was over.

 

[citygirl]

I don't understand the almost gloating tone in many of these posts. Look the US is failing! Look the US is struggling! The US is evil and it's getting what it deserves!

Seriously,

I'm a US citizen by birth. I don't think I am blindly patriotic or run around saying the USA has never made mistakes, the way things are done there is the only way or it is the only, best country on earth. But how can one overlook the contributions the US has made to the world over the last 300 years? Equally, how can one want to see a country fail? Why would anyone ever gloat about a country going through hardship?

As for this comment "After you've owned all the cars, gone to all the colleges, and eaten all the pizza, there isn't much in the way of culture unless shopping is all you live for"

Um really? Well, maybe that's what you experienced in the US but that was your choice. There are lots of things available - art, music, theater, cuisines from all over the world, sports, travel or a million other things. I'm pretty sure the US offers an amazing array of cultural experiences. If you chose not to take advantage of them and only shopped and ate pizza - well, you have no one to blame but yourself.

 

[Matt84]

I just signed in to thank you Citygirl! The US is actually the most diverse place I've ever lived in. It's up to each to discover it.

 

[Recoleta Carolina]

Just about nothing in your post makes any sense but I haven't the time or patience to correct you. I'm writing from Norway at the moment, where education and health care are free, and where the centre-left coalition has just won another election. No Norwegian in his right mind wants to emigrate from Norway -- the government doesn't need to use "moral leverage." And in general, just about every country that still has a functioning welfare system, free education, health care will have a citizenry not at all anxious to emigrate. On the other hand, I personally know many Americans who are anxious to leave the United States and would jump at the prospect of acquiring an EU passport. Many American expats in Argentina are there precisely because they find living in the USA too difficult today.

Also, many Americans living in Argentina do so for a lower cost of living (including health care). For many people, it's all about the money.

 

[Recoleta Carolina]

Just about nothing in your post makes any sense but I haven't the time or patience to correct you. I'm writing from Norway at the moment, where education and health care are free, and where the centre-left coalition has just won another election. No Norwegian in his right mind wants to emigrate from Norway -- the government doesn't need to use "moral leverage." And in general, just about every country that still has a functioning welfare system, free education, health care will have a citizenry not at all anxious to emigrate. On the other hand, I personally know many Americans who are anxious to leave the United States and would jump at the prospect of acquiring an EU passport. Many American expats in Argentina are there precisely because they find living in the USA too difficult today.

The key word here is "functioning." Many countries offer what you describe above but the implementation is almost non existent. Hence, the programs exist in theory but not in practice.

At any rate, happy people do not leave. And, Norwegians tend to be happy people.

 

[Recoleta Carolina]

JSB,

Hold on to your glass of Malbec or pour yourself a stiff one. The whole allure of the "last frontier" is dying a slow death. And, freedom today, in Argentina, does not look anything like it did only 10 years ago. This country is changing too. And, at a pretty rapid pace.

 

[mini]

Just like in Japan, and Sweden, and Italy, and Switzerland, and the UK, and even, yes, Argentina, where, to varying degrees, BUT ALL MUCH MORE THAN THE USA, education and healthcare is free.

That moral leverage must be mighty powerful stuff- as it seems to work so well all over the world....

Although I probably agree with your in your views, I just want to clarify. Healthcare in Switzerland is not free. (Uni is not free either but it's not expensive). Everyone is obliged to buy their own health insurance policy. Basically, the Swiss system seems to be where the US system wants to go.