Jobs?

There are about 13 million people in greater Buenos Aires - take 10% of that and you have more than enough people to fill the restaurants and cause traffic jams (a great number of the cars here are taxis, incidentally - not ptivately owned cars). The fact is that most people do NOT own cars and do NOT dine out. Does Igor think that the people he sees in Barrio Norte are typical? He has only to take a trip out to the towns of the Province of BA ro see the reality. In most of these places he will not find a single decent restaurant or cafe because the people who live there are trying to survive.

As for prepagos, the "lucky" people who have a legal job (that usually pays between $400 and $800 pesos a month) receive an "obra social" health insurance plan from their employers. if not, those who can afford one will do so rather than deal with public hospitals. Most people use public hospitals because they can not afford any private health plan.

While a trip (not the posh packaged type) to the northern provinces would be instructive to the readers of this priviliged website, even a little excursion or two to the outlying districts of BA will give a clue as to how bad economic conditions are.

It saddens me that there are expats who have no idea that for many people in BA a daily round trip bus fare is inaccessible. Why on earth do you think the government continues to subsidizwe what foreigners think are dirt cheap train fares? Very simply because many locals could not handle an increase of 20 centavos!

Get real people, this is a poor country despite all the glitz of the center and Barrio Norte. These are FAR from typical areas!

 

[igor]

Does Igor think that the people he sees in Barrio Norte are typical?

Igor thinks that there are places where people can and do live according or close to standards of a first world country. And it is not only Barrio Norte and there are such places outside of Buenos Aires as well.

That people in average are poor, and you don't need to know what Gini coefficient is to figure that out. But unless you possess a deep feeling of a social solidarity and associate yourself with this particular group, problems of poor people here have about the same meaning for you as problems of poor people in Africa or problems of families living in a trailer park somewhere in Iowa.

And that you should not expect to make any decent money here working for a local company, but apparently you can do reasonably well working for yourself and catering to the outside world this way or another.

 

[sapphos]

Just out of curiousity to "BIGBADWOLF" where exactly do you live because if it's in Argentina you seem to not like it very much but yet you are always posting on this site.

As for "What do all of you find so enchanting about the place that you´re willing to abandon North America/Western Europe? I must be missing something."

Perhaps it's the opportunity to experience another place and open our minds to something new. Or perhaps it's because of an opportunity to improve our Spanish so that we can go back to North America...the land of bilingualism...and opportunity...where you can have EXPECTATIONS in your life that don't get met...unlike a place like Argentina where you go knowing not to have those expectations. At least in a place like Argentina you don't EXPECT the government to help you after a hurricane or to provide social services and great healthcare to the poor. And, let's not forget, that while we extranjeros are "living large" here on our dollars or euros that we are still contributing to the economy...and some of us are interested in contributing our time to helping people less in need.
Buenos Aires and it's people are not too much different from any huge city where people are struggling to get by. Used to be a time when Miami was the bane of existence for the United States and German tourists were getting mugged left and right. Now, it's a place of million dollar apartments and is still full of people who would screw you at the first chance, especialy if you're a foreigner, and we're supposed to have rules against that.
If you really want to see abject poverty then go to Rio or visit countries such as India, Africa, or Morroco and then you'll see that Argentina might not be perfect, but it's certainly not the worst of the lot (and we've been in some of the poorer areas). And obviously there's enough of an attraction that people from the North American/European countries want to be here.

 

[bigbadwolf]

To Sapphos:

I live in the USA. I'm utterly fed up with people who confuse economic and social analysis with not liking a place. One more time: it's great in Buenos Aires for me but I'm a visitor, with US dollars that go a long way here.

Scenes of squalor and abject poverty are plentiful here. Private security and police are both ubiquitous where I live -- there's obviously a problem with destitute people who will do anything to survive. Strikes and protests by workers seeking higher wages are a daily occurrence. Child labor is everywhere.Shoeshine boys (I should say men) are also everywhere.

Strange how so many of the visitors here willfully choose to see only one aspect of Argentina (that too perhaps contrived and artificial) rather than scratch beneath the surface. Ah well, I've seen this with North American and European tourists before.

Why are you comparing Argentina with India? India's land size is just slightly more than that of Argentina, but it has close to 1 billion people. Argentina has 4% of that figure. In other words, there's no legitimate excuse for the kind of glaring poverty one sees here. I'm seeking to understand this curious phenomenon: a land consisting largely of European people with a dysfunctional economy.

How can anyone here compare Argentina with the US? GDP figures for the whole of South America, with a bit less than 400 million people, are a bit over US $900 billion. The US, with less than 300 million people, has a GDP ten times as great. The EU also has a GDP comparable to the US figure. In other words, South America in general, and Argentina in particular, has gone wrong big time.

As I look around the shops, I see that virtually everything -- save food -- is imported. This is a country that doesn't have a diversified and developed economy. This is the crux of the problem. Along with this is -- as guest has pointed out -- rampant corruption, which no doubt is of long standing.

Guest -- whoever he is -- has provided the most trenchant analysis so far, something consonant with my own experience and hunches.

 

[sapphos]

I am well aware that many people never look below the surface but many do and certainly don't find it to be perfect. All of the things you mentioned are true and we've seen it as well.

But once again, if you are tired of the U.S. I can understand that as we are too...and my husband is not originally from here. However, if you find so many problems here in Argentina then why are you interested in immigrating here???

 

[bigbadwolf]

I am well aware that many people never look below the surface but many do and certainly don't find it to be perfect. All of the things you mentioned are true and we've seen it as well.



But once again, if you are tired of the U.S. I can understand that as we are too...and my husband is not originally from here. However, if you find so many problems here in Argentina then why are you interested in immigrating here???

Err... excuse me, when did I say I want to immigrate here? I might like to spend a winter month here, from time to time, when my part of the USA is under snow. I can't conceive of -- at least presently -- moving here forever. Things are too tough and tight here, and the situation -- political, social, and economic -- seems just a bit too volatile for my rather staid taste.

It seems to me you're still laboring under the misapprehension that liking a country necessarily means being oblivious to the underlying problems it may be suffering from.

I would have thought that those who have chosen to live here would be particularly cognisant of, and attuned to, the situation in contemporary Argentina. Igor might fondly believe that one can insulate oneself from the rest of society, but my own experience indicates that this is wishful thinking. Upheavals tend to ensue when things get a bit too hard for people -- as we've seen in Argentina's recent past.

But perhaps things are considerably better than they were, say, three years ago, and I'm being unduly pessimistic.

 

[sapphos]

oops...guess this post under "big bad wolf" was written by another big bad wolf...must be a few of you running around in this site...

"How exactly should I go about the process of obtaining Argentinian immigration? I'm a British citizen with an American Green Card, and I want to do everything properly.

As I understand it, I need a one year residence visa, which can be renewed twice; at the end of three years I can apply for permanent residence, and after two more years, for citizenship.

On what basis do I get a residence visa? By investing a chunk of money in some local business?

Would employing immigration lawyers facilitate the process? And are there any particular lawyers that can be recommended?"

 

[syngirl]

As I look around the shops, I see that virtually everything -- save food -- is imported. This is a country that doesn't have a diversified and developed economy. This is the crux of the problem. Along with this is -- as guest has pointed out -- rampant corruption, which no doubt is of long standing.

Actually, check the labels more carefully. You may see things such as Puma and Nike etc but they are all made a factories in Argentina, I have yet to purchase any of these brands but according to my friends they are not as well built as their foreign counterparts. As soon as you buy a foreign made product you pay the same price as you would at home (ie I've been here long enough to balk at a 300peso price tag for Merrell's even though 120CAD is a fair price for them at home)

The majority of clothing, unless it is an haute couture brand, is made here -- all those stores in Alto Palermo like System Basic, Chocolate, Kill, etc which are expensive for locals but decent prices for me, their items are all locally made. In the Galerias Pacificas there are foreign brands that are foreign made.

"European" and "North American" car brands here -- are actually built in Argentina.

Computer parts etc are foreign made and cost the same as they would in Canada (ie a hard drive for my notebook was $180US, a CD burner = $60CAD, etc)

If you are in shops where most things are imported, it is most likely that you are in a high end shop directed at foreigners. Any product that is imported tends to be extraordinarily overpriced -- even down to little things, so I can buy a local version of hair products for about 15pesos, but go and buy some TIGI and it's 65pesos.

If you want to live like a local within a locals budget you buy Argentine.

I'm not denying that the Argentines have a problem with their imports/export, especially seeing as they are rich in natural resources and the corruption certainly contributes to the inefficiencies of the trade markets here, but one of the things that changed dramatically after the crisis was the fact that Argentines have been forced to start producing their own products rather than buying from abroad.

 

[bigbadwolf]

oops...guess this post under "big bad wolf" was written by another big bad wolf...must be a few of you running around in this site...



"How exactly should I go about the process of obtaining Argentinian immigration? I'm a British citizen with an American Green Card, and I want to do everything properly.



As I understand it, I need a one year residence visa, which can be renewed twice; at the end of three years I can apply for permanent residence, and after two more years, for citizenship.



On what basis do I get a residence visa? By investing a chunk of money in some local business?



Would employing immigration lawyers facilitate the process? And are there any particular lawyers that can be recommended?"

That was before I came here. I was going by what I read at sites like this. And by the pictures. Just the first day was a shock, and my first post indicated this. Ever since then, I've had a jaundiced view of the place. Still, live and learn, try not to believe everything one reads.

One more correction to my initial post, which you've brought back to memory: if I wanted to immigrate here, I wouldn't go through any of the formal steps. Waste of time and money. Do it in a more roundabout way. The rule of law got flushed down the loo here a looong time ago.

 

Igor is correct in saying that by living in a few upscale neighbourhoods you can avoid a lot of the problems of poverty in Argentina. What he was wrong in suggesting was that the full restaurants, theatres etc. represent the reality for most Argentines. Yes, there are well-to-do sections of suburban BA and other cities in Argentina but they are a small minority of the country. As I said earlier, take a look at the towns in the Province of BA. Get on a train from Constitucion station and travel half ana hour to an hour from BA (or less). What you see will be disturbing.

IMr Wolf is absolutely right in saying that you can not compare resource rich Argentina with its small population with countries like India and Brazil that have huge populations (though a comparison to India is not all that favourable. India has a rapidly expanding middle class. Salaries for many professionals are actually higher than those of comparable Argentine professionals. Argentina would be lucky to be expanding its middle class as India is. The opposite is happening here).

I find it curious that some western expats here make continual references to the inadequacies of the US welfare system as a justification for the appaling lack of decent social services in Argentina. The truth is that their gripes about social services in the US are not even accurate. Yes, the US government was slow to respond to Katrina but they have responded and VAST amounts of money are going into help for the victims. A CRUISE SHIP was even sent to New Orleans to house the homeless! Could you imagine that happening here! Expats, get it out of your minds that Argentines are "kinder, gentler people". There are some very decent people here but the government are not part of the group. As much as you may hate George Bush and the Republican right, the fact remains that social services in the US are a hell of a lot better than they are in Argentina. Who in the US gets a social security pension of $50 a month! And even that is not guaranteed as you must have THIRTY years of contributions to get that. As about 40% of the population work "en engro" - i.e. illegally, they will not get ANY pension. They'll likely end as paupers on shockingly small public assistance handouts. It is really enormously dishonest to deny that there is a strong social umbrella in the US -- even if it is not as generous as that of a tiny country like the Netherlands. It is selfish to suggest that things are "not that bad" in Argentina. People are suffering economically and socially. They live under an authoritarian system that does not respect the rules of democracy, that exists for the benefit of corrupt politicians and their cronies. Facing this reality, getting to know Argentina and analysing the TRUTH is not to dislike Argentina. Mr Wolf is seeking answers yet some of you are faulting him for his intellectual curiosity. Is that fair?