Keep the presses rolling...

Funny how they can spin things.
Here we are discussing who was the meanest mofo back in the day, while the Powers that be are printing money so fast that they do not care to do any quality control or follow the traditional presidential roster.
 
Napoleon said:
It's funny that they could be ANTI-Roca and yet PRO-Malvinas.

Funny, indeed. I've had this discussion with a CFK supporter. He did not see the connection.

Iznogud said:
Roca is on the way out for practical reasons, not lack of merit or other BS.

Roca isn't out for practical reasons. They could start a new series with AB, AC, AD, and then BA, BD, etc. He's out for political reasons; the government wants to align itself with Evita's popularity, and use the moment to reaffirm its support of human rights. Of course, the similarities this government has with Evita and Peron are debatable, are is the government's human rights record. Clearly, it's much better than Roca's thus far. With Malvinas, you never know.

And as jp posted prior, the talk about replacing Roca isn't recent. The article jp posted was from 2011, but I remember reading things about replacing him since I arrived here in 2008.
 
I mean they should move to another dead president. We do have plenty waiting their turn. Roca was controversil even before the first note was printed but a president he was so he deserves his turn.

Also agree with your POVs but I insist that dead Presidents have right of precedence over other more modern and popular figures. Believing the current powers that be human rights or any of their BS politics and antics is a personal choice.
 
Napoleon said:
It's funny that they could be ANTI-Roca and yet PRO-Malvinas.

bradlyhale said:
Funny, indeed. I've had this discussion with a CFK supporter. He did not see the connection.

I avoid these discussions with people who can't see the difference. Arguing isn't going to increase their IQ, much less change their mind. If they can't understand that there could be a discussion relating the two, then you've already lost.

Because they're not going to change their mind and you're going to LOSE by wasting time and getting emotionally ramped up.
 
bradlyhale said:
Hitler murdered Jewish people to build a nation, just as Roca. Their reasoning was the same. Hitler viewed Jewish people as enemies of the state (not belonging to the Volksgemeinschaft), just as Roca viewed the indigenous people in Patagonia. The only difference perhaps, as you stated yourself, is that Roca killed fewer people and he didn't have gas chambers. In terms of comparison, it's not relevant to the discussion how Roca murdered the indigenous people or how many he murdered (although these are important questions in general terms), but rather why he murdered them.

Sorry dude, I'm going to have to call BS on this one. The Jews were not attacking German villages with an army of 6000, stealing 200,000 cattle to sell to the Chileans, etc. The extermination of the Jews by Hitler was a genocide because it was a deliberate attack by the state against an unarmed civilian population who offered no resistance.

The Desert Campaign was a military operation aimed at conquering the region due to the CONSTANT ATTACKS BY MAPUCHES. During the Desert Campaign battles were fought and people died on both sides. That's not what happened with Europe's Jews.
 
Iznogud said:
I mean they should move to another dead president.

Why another dead president? Jose de San Martin (5) wasn't a president, nor was Juan Manuel de Rosas (20) or Manuel Belgrano (10).

You'd be hard-pressed to find an Argentine historian that wouldn't say Eva Peron, for better or for worse, was a revolutionary figure in Argentine history. This government, like many others, milks these sort of historical figures to increase its political capital. I think we'd both agree on that. :)
 
el_expatriado said:
Sorry dude, I'm going to have to call BS on this one. The Jews were not attacking German villages with an army of 6000, stealing 200,000 cattle to sell to the Chileans, etc.

For both Roca and Hitler, the Indigenous people and the Jewish people, respectively, posed significant threats to the "nation," and that was how they both justified the genocides that took place in their countries.

Adolf Hitler, 1919: "If the threat with which Jewry faces our people has given rise to undeniable hostility on the part of a large section of our people, the cause of this hostility must be sought in the clear recognition that Jewry as such is deliberately or unwittingly having a pernicious effect on our nation...."

If the threats promoted the same fears in each leader, as well as the same reaction, how are the technicalities of the threats themselves relevant in terms of justifying the comparison of Roca to Hitler?
 
They are considered founding fathers, they rest in peace and are long gone.

Evita does not qualify in my book. Still plenty of people that hate anything Peron related and others that can not prevent themselves to milk Peron and Evita at any available opportunity (or even creat one).

The old stiffs are symbolic of an argentine nation. Evita is used to divide.
 
Roca was perhaps the best argentine president ever. He was no more a genocide than any other XIX century and some XX centrury argentine presidents (including Peron). In fact he was anything but the brute killer he is portrait to be by the left, he was an extremely rational man.

The only reason he has been converted to a monster by some people is that politically he represent everything that they dislike, that is, he was a liberal. J.A. Roca represent a successful, liberal, progressist and open to the world argentina, everything the left detest.

The negative bias of some groups towards Roca is clearly evident when you compare it with the proportional positive bias they have towards other figures such as Rosas and Peron (even though Peron was a fan of Roca).

Rosas for example, killed more indians than Roca, and with much more brutality even. But Rosas represent the populist, autarchic argentina, which some leftist love. So they forgive the Rosas´s killings but condemn the ones of Roca.

And the genocide accusation are really ridiculous, because as someone pointed out a genocide is the systematic extermination of a people. Yet the desert campaign does´t not fit that description. There were way more prisoners than casualties (if it was a genocide, why not kill the prisoners), many tribes formerly expelled by the mapuches fought along side the argentine government, many tribes where later given land to settle, etc. Surely there were a lot of inustices commited, those where hard times and argentina was really a wild corner of the world, but only twisting the concept of genocide can the campaign be classified as such.
 
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