Learning Spanish And The Joy Of Verbs

Even within Mexico, with the exception of the wealthy, Mexican Spanish is pretty adulterated. And in the border zone, forget it.

As a result of the reconquista, there is a cultural convergence underway in Southern California. I suppose it's not too surprising that it should be accompanied by a linguistic convergence. Just within my lifetime, I have noticed a change in sentence structure in local Spanish. When I was young, adjectives almost always appeared after the nouns they modified. Today, in San Diego County, the local Spanish often places the adjective before the noun, as in English.
 
You can go to classes until your head spins (as it seems to be doing :) ) but it won't get you anywhere past a certain point, as far as getting past getting started. The only way you're going to become fluent (even conversationally competent, let's say) is to speak and listen to the language. Classes twice a week won't get you there - it needs to be constant (at least several times a day for extended periods) before it starts creeping into your brain.

And I have to say - 18 months is a LONG time to be in classes and not feel like you're advancing to conversational-level Spanish.

Learning a language is different than most anything else you will learn because you are changing a different symbol-link to concepts and objects set in your mind since you learned English as a baby and your brain is having to translate everything between two symbol sets. It's a lot of work and doesn't feel natural and how can you actually carry on a conversation if you're translating both sides of the conversation both ways?

Once you've got a pretty good handle on HOW things work (that's why I like structured grammar classes to start with), you will have to speak and listen to learn more. Doesn't mean you don't need to expand your vocabulary, and go back to the verb conjugation charts from time to time (even often, at first) to remember simple present and future, for example. Once you have the three most important tenses down and start talking, you can go on and take a tense at a time, later. You'll be surprised how easy it is once you really get going.

Talking in infinitives and present tense is fine to start with, but people will tend to think of you in their own terms if you can use just those three simple tenses - present simple, future simple and past simple - and conversations will be there. Other tenses will come with time.

As to how to get there?

TALK in Spanish at home more. Doesn't have to be every minute, but maybe even a majority of the time. And your children, you can get them in a bilingual school if that becomes a problem later, and even change the speaking habits at home back to English once you get familiar enough with Spanish. One of my sisters-in-law and I speak English together all the time now, while she talks Guarani with the family when I'm not around (I'm still trying to get someone to teach me Guarani - thinking about taking a class at CUI) and we all talk Spanish when we're all together. It's not hard to mix it up.

THINK in Spanish as much as you can (this may be one of the most important tips, in my opinion). That's where it's really important - your subconscious mind needs to KNOW what the words mean, which tenses to use, which pronouns and gender to use, etc. At first, you'll be translating in your head but after a while, you'll realize that you're no longer searching for the right word or tense or gender, that it just starts coming naturally. It's hard to do sometimes, and obviously, when you're working or in other concentration-heavy moments, you won't be able to do it (at least at first) but do it when you're walking, have imaginary conversations with yourself, name things you see, etc. Any time you're forming words in your head, and have the time, try to do it in Spanish. Make mental notes of the things you couldn't say and look them up later.

WATCH as much TV in Spanish as you can. And/Or, what helps me often (vocabulary and usage because I'm VERY visual as well), is watch English programming that has Spanish subtitles and READ the subtitles, every one of them, almost religiously. I did that for so long that I can't watch anything in English any more without reading the Spanish subtitles as well, when available.

DON'T worry about making mistakes. DON'T worry about perfect pronunciation (although I do believe it's very important to understand, letter-by-letter, how they sound and how to speak and WORK on it) but you don't have to be absolutely perfect. Talk slowly - it doesn't make sense to try to speak with native speed when you are having problems pronouncing the words. Accept that some people will have an honestly hard time understanding you at first, and you'll get to know after awhile when they should know exactly what you said :) Easier to improve pronunciation once you are not translating everything in your head as well.

I came here in 2006 with Spanish unused for more than 30 years. I'm now in my early 50s. I had two years of Spanish in high school in the late 70s. I was never fluent, although I could converse (in a simple fashion) with the Mexicans on the labor crews where I worked after high school (couple of years). When I met my wife here, she didn't speak real good Spanish (she's from Paraguay, from the poorest area, where the predominant language is mostly Guarani with a smattering of Spanish mixed in), although she was much better than I was (she was actually conversational, just with poor form). We got along alright at first, but the more complex that became our relationship, the more we needed to be able to speak the same language well. Hell, we started off with me using Google Translate on the computer! I never took classes here, although I did try some online things (Rosetta Stone primarily - I suggest it or something like it for people who are very visually-connected), which helped for vocabulary mostly. I reviewed the conjugation charts often, available for free online. Within months we were having conversations without Google and other crutches.

Now, many people here think I'm either Columbian or Mexican, or sometimes Brasilian. About the only time I have a hard time being understood is by taxi drivers who are "rompiendo las pelotas" (breaking the balls) of a foreigner. I'll never speak with an Argentine accent because I learned originally in Texas and with Mexicans, and I don't know that I would say I'm 100% fluent but I speak about 90% Spanish and 10% English on a daily basis now.
 
Great thread and very relevant to expats in Argentina. I've posted some of my opinions on learning in the past but I'll chime in here as well.

internationalguy - I did try a couple of other teachers, one I liked actually but then she had to cancel as she found another job. So perhaps its time to look elsewhere. This one I use now is via skype and I`m feel its too remote compared to 1 to 1 in the same room, partily due to the connection quality aswell.

I was going to reply to the posts about learning style and verb tenses and different teachers until I saw this.


Skype is an excellent resource for learning a language if you're not living in a country where the language is spoken. Otherwise it is a TERRIBLE option. The city is full of Spanish teachers and you shouldn't have any trouble finding one who can accommodate your schedule.

I would say that any changes you make to the way you study spanish need to start here. Get a teacher with whom you can have face to face lessons. If you want, send me a PM with where you live/work and what times you have available and I'll ask around.

Actually me and my wife never speak Spanish to each other. Mainly because she wants our kids who are very young to learn English so we only talk in English at home, and shes not a very good teacher anyway. I spent months say "Es bien" to people with her until she said one day , oh its "Esta bien" not "Es bien".

How is your wife's English? If it's good you really need to change this dynamic if you want to have a snowball's chance in hell of learning. I wound't worry about your kids, if you speak to them in English and to your wife in Spanish, they'll pick english from you. At least that's what I've seen from tons of 'mixed marriages' here. One parent speaking to the kids in one language, the other in the other language is enough for them to learn.

You're wife doesn't need to be your Spanish teacher, in fact I think that would be disaster waiting to happen, she just needs to be your conversation partner. The more you hear spanish, and the more you speak spanish the easier it all gets. Talk to her about this, it's something that requires a serious effort. The tendency is always going to be to slip back into the lengua franca. I constantly try to make an effort to speak English to my girlfriend but without a conscious effort I always seem to slip back into Spanish.

I want to insist on what I said before, Forget the subjunctive.
Work with a local on the ALPHABETsounds, most expats mispronounce the Basic letters and are not understood by locals. Do role plating in Spanish emulate the body posture and diction and intonation, find a Spanish diction coach ! Pay special attention to the phonetic aspects tongue position, lips, t Work on colloquial phrases with your mate Over and Over until 100 perfect-

YES YES YES. This is a big barrier to being understood. One of the most difficult for me to get over and one that I still occasionally have to put effort in to if I'm not immediately understood.

The problem is we assume that since the majority of the alphabet sounds relatively similar to the same letters in English that the are the same. They're not and they're often very small differences. When my spanish teacher first started bring it up to me, it seemed like utter minutia that I could barely even pick out by ear. Yet that utter minutia had a HUGE impact on how well I was understood. It was quite frankly shocking.

The best resource on the web for this is here: http://www.uiowa.edu...ech/phonetics/#

Click on the spanish link and go through the different sounds and watch videos for the different sounds, then go to the english link and see the difference.

The one that most expats (myself included) seem to struggle with is "L"

oodqc.png


yadda yadda :) I made that mistake with my husband when he got here: We were working together in English, so talking to each other in English was just easier... the end result: It took him about 4-5 years to become fluent. This only chaged when he got himself a job and had to interact in Spanish. I know it is challenging with kids, etc. Your kids are going to speak Spanish if they are living here and going to school or have friends, etc and you will be the only one left out. Just switch your Spanish classes to something else that you like or its related to your job, etc.

slightly off topic.
How about the 'understanding side of things?
So far I am trying, and generally finding very helpful people on the speaking side but understanding what people say to me is an issue.
In fact lots of people are very helpful, even teaching words when I get stuck. (of course then they want to practice english )
Ya'll got any good suggestions for listening practice?

That is very common issue for any language learner. Ignoring the issues of accents, colloquialisms and, idioms. The main reason that language learners have trouble with clearly articulated and correctly spoken phrases is that when learning 'situational vocabulary' - as it was christened in this thread - they tend to do so favoring phrases which correlate to collocations in their native language rather than trying to discover the correct correlation for the language that they're learning.

The result is that in a conversation about the same topic, the language learner is understood far more easily by the native speaker than vice versa.

I suspect the best way to avoid this would be to concentrate on "phrasal vocabulary" during study or classes, and of course, as with everything else, practice makes perfect.

The third example, though I'm not as sure of this one, is that the Argentine relationship between llevar and traer seems to be a bit different than in the California border zone. However, in both this example and the first one, it may simply be that I'm accustomed to the free-wheeling 'Sponglish' usages of Southern California.

Llevar, to take, and traer, to bring, have exactly the same relationship in Spanish as their counterparts do in English. That being said, it's a relationship that is as frequently confused by native Spanish speakers as by native English speakers.
 
I've been speaking Spanish since I began to talk, and I still make mistakes. The other day I was watching TV with my husband and I say "creo que esa se ha operado los pomelos." What I meant to say was "I think she's had her cheeks operated"... pomelos... pomulos... so close! My husband was like "los pomulos no se, pero los pomelos seguro!"

It's also been a learning experience for me - slang, lunfardo, the vos & uds instead of tu and vosotros... I try to stick with castellano from Spain, but now I've got some crazy mix of an accent.

Now teaching English to my husband.... :eek: He knows a lot... the problem is he learned it all wrong and fixing bad habits is a lot more difficult than learning it right in the first place. He taught himself by reading, so a lot of his pronunciation sounds like he's reading the word in Spanish, which is completely wrong. Vowel sounds are the biggest problem. I really think Spanish is easier to learn than English, if for nothing else than the vowel sounds. At least in Spanish you only have 5 basic sounds to learn.
 
I've been speaking Spanish since I began to talk, and I still make mistakes. The other day I was watching TV with my husband and I say "creo que esa se ha operado los pomelos." What I meant to say was "I think she's had her cheeks operated"... pomelos... pomulos... so close! My husband was like "los pomulos no se, pero los pomelos seguro!"

Hahaha.

There was this clique of three girls who used to work at the office and always hung out together, all three had varying ​quantities of work done. Everyone refered to them as 'pomelos', 'melones', and 'sandias'
 
One thing that worked really well for me was to use Duolingo, so I'd like to recommend it. (Seems it's been mentioned on other threads, but not here yet.)

Anyway, the gamification of learning makes things easier for me, and it looks like those same problems are very common, so it might work for you. You can repeat and practice any subject as much as you want, and progress whenever you feel you're ready. There also isn't that same stress that's felt in a classroom or with a tutor, where you feel embarassed or "on the spot". Not that this can be used as a permenant crutch, as you will eventually need to conquer that fear, but in the beginning it can help you build confidence in private to prepare for practicing in public. There's no numerical scoring, and you get to retry as much as you want. Actually, that reminds me of something, this video is totally relevant to the scoring anxiety point.

The only real issue I have with that site is that they don't have an Argentine dialect option (yet), but it's community-driven, so one can easily be made.

Aside from that, you do need to practice often. Very often. I've unfortunately been staying in a house without internet. Missing practice for days on end has been undoing a lot of my progress. I have to absolutely agree with everyone who says that you need to practice a lot and often. If you can't practice one way, find another. (I for one had to conquer my social anxiety and just start practicing with my boyfriend and his family regularly.)
 
A couple of classes a week is not a lot if your motive is to become bilingual. La UBA offers intense four and five hour per day classes, but as you mentioned earlier, you work and have a family. Watching TV in English and reading the subtitles, and watching TV in castellano helps a lot! I can't emphasize how useful it is. I had a hard time with castellano as well, but it wasn't until I refused to speak English forcing everyone to speak to me in castellano, that the light bulb wen on. Until you change from English to Spanish it will be difficult to become bilingual. Try to stop speaking English at home and download a dictionary app on your cell phone to use if you don't understand something.
 
Great thread and very relevant to expats in Argentina. I've posted some of my opinions on learning in the past but I'll chime in here as well.



I was going to reply to the posts about learning style and verb tenses and different teachers until I saw this.


Skype is an excellent resource for learning a language if you're not living in a country where the language is spoken. Otherwise it is a TERRIBLE option. The city is full of Spanish teachers and you shouldn't have any trouble finding one who can accommodate your schedule.

I would say that any changes you make to the way you study spanish need to start here. Get a teacher with whom you can have face to face lessons. If you want, send me a PM with where you live/work and what times you have available and I'll ask around.



How is your wife's English? If it's good you really need to change this dynamic if you want to have a snowball's chance in hell of learning. I wound't worry about your kids, if you speak to them in English and to your wife in Spanish, they'll pick english from you. At least that's what I've seen from tons of 'mixed marriages' here. One parent speaking to the kids in one language, the other in the other language is enough for them to learn.

You're wife doesn't need to be your Spanish teacher, in fact I think that would be disaster waiting to happen, she just needs to be your conversation partner. The more you hear spanish, and the more you speak spanish the easier it all gets. Talk to her about this, it's something that requires a serious effort. The tendency is always going to be to slip back into the lengua franca. I constantly try to make an effort to speak English to my girlfriend but without a conscious effort I always seem to slip back into Spanish.



YES YES YES. This is a big barrier to being understood. One of the most difficult for me to get over and one that I still occasionally have to put effort in to if I'm not immediately understood.

The problem is we assume that since the majority of the alphabet sounds relatively similar to the same letters in English that the are the same. They're not and they're often very small differences. When my spanish teacher first started bring it up to me, it seemed like utter minutia that I could barely even pick out by ear. Yet that utter minutia had a HUGE impact on how well I was understood. It was quite frankly shocking.

The best resource on the web for this is here: http://www.uiowa.edu...ech/phonetics/#

Click on the spanish link and go through the different sounds and watch videos for the different sounds, then go to the english link and see the difference.

The one that most expats (myself included) seem to struggle with is "L"

oodqc.png






That is very common issue for any language learner. Ignoring the issues of accents, colloquialisms and, idioms. The main reason that language learners have trouble with clearly articulated and correctly spoken phrases is that when learning 'situational vocabulary' - as it was christened in this thread - they tend to do so favoring phrases which correlate to collocations in their native language rather than trying to discover the correct correlation for the language that they're learning.

The result is that in a conversation about the same topic, the language learner is understood far more easily by the native speaker than vice versa.

I suspect the best way to avoid this would be to concentrate on "phrasal vocabulary" during study or classes, and of course, as with everything else, practice makes perfect.



Llevar, to take, and traer, to bring, have exactly the same relationship in Spanish as their counterparts do in English. That being said, it's a relationship that is as frequently confused by native Spanish speakers as by native English speakers.

Phillip DT So much wisdom !!! on the Phonetics and the sounds , great resource.... from Iowa , expats want to memorize words instead of Emulating Acting Imitating Porteño accents. Think of the Accent coaches for Hollywood actors to do Brits etc.
 
Thanks for all the responses. I think i`m going to have a break from my current teacher and see what else is around. I`ve also started getting tv shows with spanish subtitles and visa versa to help. I`ve also been using duolingo on my ipad which someone recommended, forgot to say that has been a help as it makes learning fun (well more fun!).
I will try and encourage my wife to speak to me more in spanish, i think the kids will learn enough english anyway what with the films the watch which are mainly english and all the apps i have on the ipad are in english. Like someone said i`ll be the one left by myself not understanding anything in spanish, its hard when your kids are chatting together in spanish and you want to understand what theyre saying but i just pickup words here and there.
 
How old are your kids? If the basic foundation has been laid for their english then I'd say you're going to be ok if in the short term you reduce their english language input -- that doesn't mean that you necessarily need to reduce their output always though -- maybe you need to mix up the rules more, kids can speak english to you but you're only allowed to speak to them in spanish, kids love having a bit of control so they will probably keep you on your toes teling you "En espanol!"

I do have to say though the most annoying thing is being corrected constantly while trying to express yourself. My husband and I said long ago we'd no longer do that unless it was requested -- because it just gets too annoying. If, after you complete your thought, they correct you, it's slightly less anoying -- but mid-sentence is the worst. I still make lots of mistakes in my spanish and it can drive me nuts when I'm just trying to communicate and someone jumps in and corrects me. The other day I was showing a fellow mum the conversation I had had on paper with the teachers at daycare about whether there were fights going on at daycare -- my son had come home with bite marks on his back and told me he doesn't like one of the other boys "porque me pega en los ojos"! So obviously to me what was more important was showing the message I had sent -- however the mum immediately pointed out that I said Thomas dijo instead of Thomas me dijo -- yeah well, you know what? I also had put the date as the 12th of may when it was the 9th -- I obviously wasn't exactly paying attention when I wrote it! So I think people need to know where the line is for correcting / not and frankly whereas with the example above I held my tongue, had it been my husband who corrected me in that moment because of it being your pareja it can quickly escalate into a fight "that's not the point! listen to what I'm trying to say!" blah blah blah...
 
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