New Entry "Reciprocity" Fee for US, Canada, Australian Citizens...

[nikad]

Before the 2001 big economic crisis in Argentina, one would not need a visa to travel to the US. Now that the US is undergoing a big economic crisis, and as many newspapers and websites reported of Americans going south to stretch their dollars, I think it is only fair to return the favor. I do believe in the reciprocity principle among countries.

 

[ssr]

Before the 2001 big economic crisis in Argentina, one would not need a visa to travel to the US. Now that the US is undergoing a big economic crisis, and as many newspapers and websites reported of Americans going south to stretch their dollars, I think it is only fair to return the favor. I do believe in the reciprocity principle among countries.

Hm, why? As iStar wrote early in this thread, the fees that are paid for American or Canadian tourist visas are used to cover the enormous costs of making sure that all those applying for tourist visas, globally, intend to respect the limits of those tourist visas and not to stick around because there's not much opportunity back home. Argentina doesn't have these costs. And, as you said, Americans (and Canadians) are coming down here to "stretch" (i.e., SPEND) their dollars, not because they're desperate to get their hands on a few Argentine pesos.

Are you, perhaps, as Denver described earlier in this thread, allowing pride to displace reason? When Argentina gets its economy in order and isn't viewed as a potential source of "economic refugees," it should rightfully be given US visa waiver status, Argentines should get US tourist visas for free and the US can stop paying for it's huge visa operation here in Buenos Aires. For now, however, this new "reciprocity" fee is just another money grab by the Argentine government. But, I suppose, with all of the things that are subsidized here (including politicians' vacation homes in Punta), the government needs the money.

 

[steveinbsas]

Hm, why? As iStar wrote early in this thread, the fees that are paid for American or Canadian tourist visas are used to cover the enormous costs of making sure that all those applying for tourist visas, globally, intend to respect the limits of those tourist visas and not to stick around because there's not much opportunity back home. Argentina doesn't have these costs. And, as you said, Americans (and Canadians) are coming down here to "stretch" (i.e., SPEND) their dollars, not because they're desperate to get their hands on a few Argentine pesos.

Are you, perhaps, as Denver described earlier in this thread, allowing pride to displace reason? When Argentina gets its economy in order and isn't viewed as a potential source of "economic refugees," it should rightfully be given US visa waiver status, Argentines should get US tourist visas for free and the US can stop paying for it's huge visa operation here in Buenos Aires. For now, however, this new "reciprocity" fee is just another money grab by the Argentine government. But, I suppose, with all of the things that are subsidized here (including politicians' vacation homes in Punta), the government needs the money.

Uh, oh.

What if Argentine migraciones uses the money from the new fees to cover the "costs of making sure that all those (entering Argentina on) tourist visas...intend to respect the limits of those tourist visas and not to stick around"...?

As unlikely as it is, wouldn't that be the ultimate form of reciprocity?

 

[nikad]

Hm, why? As iStar wrote early in this thread, the fees that are paid for American or Canadian tourist visas are used to cover the enormous costs of making sure that all those applying for tourist visas, globally, intend to respect the limits of those tourist visas and not to stick around because there's not much opportunity back home. Argentina doesn't have these costs. And, as you said, Americans (and Canadians) are coming down here to "stretch" (i.e., SPEND) their dollars, not because they're desperate to get their hands on a few Argentine pesos.

Are you, perhaps, as Denver described earlier in this thread, allowing pride to displace reason? When Argentina gets its economy in order and isn't viewed as a potential source of "economic refugees," it should rightfully be given US visa waiver status, Argentines should get US tourist visas for free and the US can stop paying for it's huge visa operation here in Buenos Aires. For now, however, this new "reciprocity" fee is just another money grab by the Argentine government. But, I suppose, with all of the things that are subsidized here (including politicians' vacation homes in Punta), the government needs the money.

Well, I agree that there should be some kind of service and screening provided, most importantly the screening.

Local authorities should go all the way and do what they should do: Enforce the law and/or modify it just so there are as little "gray zones" as possible. Reward foreigners that have proper visas and deport the rest, whether they are uneducated immigrants or modern telecommuting "economic refugees".

As with everything this administration does, it all aims to a) make extra $ or b) get extra votes.

I do not think that being proud about your country is necessarily something negative, actually if people really wanted to feel proud they would do a lot more to improve things, eliminate corruption, etc.

 

[fifilafiloche]

The government does need the money, that s for sure. They wouldn t ask for another IMF loan if they didn t. Out of the 1600 USD we paid to get our vehicules out of the port of Buenos Aires, the real costs didn t exceed 20%, but we paid much more than in Europe for much lower salaries.

But the US does need money too, so what s the point? They are living on international debt too and consumed more than they produced as well.

People that are trying to rank countries by "necessity" are just showing patriotic arrogance and can t expect locals to watch them with much sympathy. The asumption that somebody spending a pension in a foreign country would be more desirable than somebody bringing his workforce is strange to me. The pensioneer just benefits, he doesnt bring energy, knowledge or sweat. He s passive while the worker is active. An economic immigrant projets himself in the future, while a pensioneer lives on his past. Both are economic refugees.

Actually economic immigrants make life cheaper for locals, while pensioneers can potentially feed inflation, thru housing speculation for example. How many countries, from Argentina to Morocco, from Easter Europe to Thailand, have seen rental prices exploding on foreign investment pressure, making very difficult for locals to find decent lodging with their local salary?

Just like Argentina needs Bolivian and Paraguayan workers to keep its economy dynamic, the US needs to import cheaper labor too, especially in services, so that locals can afford to buy those services with their wages. Maids, nannies, trash collectors, a lot of hard jobs can t find volunteers within the local population, seeking more valorising tasks. Even the almighty US army couldnt survive with its foreign recruits meat sent to the front line. Economic immigrants are much more motivated and flexible, they have a sense of sacrifice for the next generations that pensioneers don t, they also can contribute to the countries demographic development, while retirees....

Stop assuming that money is everything, it s a means not a goal. What an immigrant brings first and foremost is his personality. Some might be takers, some might be givers, but you can t rank them on the money they own, because there are different ways to bring to a community.

 

[steveinbsas]

Local authorities should go all the way and do what they should do: Enforce the law and/or modify it just so there are as little "gray zones" as possible. Reward foreigners that have proper visas and deport the rest, whether they are uneducated immigrants or modern telecommuting "economic refugees".

This would mean putting an end to the "perpetual" tourist in Argentina.

Based on what is happening now, I think that's is likely to happen in the future (if and when reentry is simply denied to those who have already spent six months of the previous twelve in Argentina).

Foreigners with tourist visas aren't allowed to stay in the US more than six months of the year, are they?

Doesn't the exact same law exist in Argentina?

If so, all they have to do is enforce it.

Those who are here illegally and think that Argentina won't do so because they need the dollars might be sadly mistaken, perhaps much sooner than they expect.

National pride often trumps economic necessity. Argentina will not suffer very much (economically) by the expulsion of the scofflaws, anyway.

Even thought the number of applications for temporary and permanent resident visas from individuals from the USA reached an all time high in 2008, the total was still less than five thousand. That's really just a drop in the bucket.

The fact that Ashley was recently denied an (additional) extension of a tourist visa at migraciones may serve as a warning that storm clouds are forming.

 

[nikad]

National pride often trumps economic necessity. Argentina will not suffer very much (economically) by the expulsion of the scofflaws, anyway.

I agree with you. I am all for immigrants, people that truly intend to live, work, build families, businesses, etc, I am totally against illegal immigrants who do not even bother getting their proper visas and permits. finding a legal flaw or loophole does not make anybody different to an illegal immigrant in my eyes.

 

[sesamosinsal]

How can this fee be considered an FU to the US when it also applies to Canada and Australia?

I'm not the one who said it. I quoted someone else who did, and I was just replying to it.

Perhaps Argentina has taken a glance at the effectiveness of visas in the United States... Again, 40% of those who get herded into U.S. embassies and consulates around the world are approved for visas, and subsequently overstay them. I would expect 10%, and maybe I would let 20% slide by. But 40%?! What's the point?

I think it would be just as effective if they were required to show roundtrip airfare, a bank statement, and a credit card to the everso amazingly friendly customs and border patrol officers...

 

[steveinbsas]

I'm not the one who said it. I quoted someone else who did, and I was just replying to it.

Thanks, Nothing personal intended!

I think it would be just as effective if they were required to show roundtrip airfare, a bank statement, and a credit card to the everso amazingly friendly customs and border patrol officers...

I think the Argentine "tourist visa" requirements actually include providing bank statements and a certificate of health, but I've never heard of anyone being asked to provide them (though it's been a while since I researched the subject).

Doesn't Brazil require bank statements and a credit card, as well as a charge a fee for a tourist visa? Why should Argentina ask for (demand) less?

You weren't being facetious when you referred to the customs and border patrol officers here, were you? I've usually found them to be very friendly (just a bit indifferent on rare occasions...at the worst).

 

[ssr]

Uh, oh.

What if Argentine migraciones uses the money from the new fees to cover the "costs of making sure that all those (entering Argentina on) tourist visas...intend to respect the limits of those tourist visas and not to stick around"...?

As unlikely as it is, wouldn't that be the ultimate form of reciprocity?

Hah! Yes, Steve, as unlikely as that is, what if?

The fact that Ashley was recently denied an (additional) extension of a tourist visa at migraciones may serve as a warning that storm clouds are forming.

Wow, so dramatic. Storm clouds. Oooh....

So, folks looking for a place to hang out for a while can either apply for some kind of long-term visa here in Argentina or go someplace else (perhaps the fifilafiloche trail: "Argentina to Morocco, from Easter Europe to Thailand"). Not sure who benefits from cracking down on the "perpetual tourists" down here but, sure, Argentina can do it if the people think that's what's best.

National pride often trumps economic necessity...

Yeppers.