OBAMA Speech in Cairo was a 10+ AMAZING !!!

Meh. The presence in the middle east has more than a touch of idealogical zeal to it. There are resources in other corners of the world that could have been tapped.

Honestly, I don't jest. "phony tony" can rot for what he did, but I still think he did it because he thought it the right thing to do. Thats what actually worries me to be honest - politicians going on misguided moral crusades. He actually made a lot of fairly smart decisions domestically. And even a few decent ones internationally. If it hadn't been for his miserable failures in foreign policy, history might have looked kindly on his premiership.

I just think its a bit of a cop out saying "it would have happened anyway, multinationals just wanted it that way". It doesn't really bear up. Ever worked with a multinational?
 
jp said:
Meh. The presence in the middle east has more than a touch of idealogical zeal to it. There are resources in other corners of the world that could have been tapped.

The oil imports of the USA still come mainly from Canada and West Africa. As of 2006, 77% of US oil imports were coming from these two places. But the study group which Cheney convened in the late '90s anticipated an increase in US demand over the next quarter-century. In addition, the attempted domination of the Middle East is not so much about using the oil as about controlling who has access to it. The US wants power of blackmail over China, India and Europe with control of the oil spigot. And finally, the US dollar is backed by the black gold. And has been almost since the US went off the gold standard in the early '70s. This supports the dollar as reserve currency: people accepting dollars know they can always change the dollars for the black gold (oil). Make sure that oil sales are denominated in dollars and make sure you have some measure of control over oil output and prices and the dollar is safe. This is all "grand strategy," but it was considerations like this that prompted Cheney and his gang to do what they did.

Honestly, I don't jest. "phony tony" can rot for what he did, but I still think he did it because he thought it the right thing to do. Thats what actually worries me to be honest - politicians going on misguided moral crusades. He actually made a lot of fairly smart decisions domestically. And even a few decent ones internationally. If it hadn't been for his miserable failures in foreign policy, history might have looked kindly on his premiership.

Blair was a sh!t from day one and a true son of Thatcher. "New Labour" was and is Thatcherism (in particular, see Simon Jenkins' book, "Thatcher and Sons"). When Bush got elected, a worried Blair went to Cllinton for counsel; Clinton advised Blair to "be nice" to Bush, which was what Blair did. The essence of the "special relationship" has been that the US pulls down its pants and Britain smooches its backside but Blair took this to new heights. Blair was a Bush gauleiter. The "Yo, Blair" incident makes this clear (on YouTube here).

What "accomplishments" does Blair have? Zilch. Now he's messing around in the Middle East, ignored by everyone, with no power to do anything, and no respect. He presided over an asset bubble in the UK, whose hangover is severe. What exactly did he accomplish?

I just think its a bit of a cop out saying "it would have happened anyway, multinationals just wanted it that way". It doesn't really bear up. Ever worked with a multinational?

The US oil multinationals were against the invasion. The invasion was grand strategy coming from senior officials of the US state. It was based on abstract geopolitical and energy considerations and not the immediate bottom line of US oil companies. The invasion has been bad for the business of the US oil MNCs
 
bigbadwolf said:
I've underestimated Obama all along, underestimated his probity, his guts, and his resolve. And what has convinced me of the errors of my ways was this article here by Alex Cockburn.
Just Googled Cockburn and was amused to find he is the son of well-known British stalinist Claud Cockburn. Junior seems to have his fingers in all correct pies - global warming, apologism for left-wing antisemitism etc, etc.

I really can't understand why people who are (rightly) suspicious of what governments say will accept the ramblings of people like this and propaganda sheets they write in. The left has few lessons to learn from the establishment when it comes to half-truth, concealment and outright lies.

As I understand it, the president of Honduras took his cue from the clown-prince of anti-Americanism, Hugo Chavez, and decided to change the constitution to allow the best man (himself) to stay on in the job of president. This was in the teeth of both the congress and supreme court of Honduras and led to an old-style military coup.

Obama has been exceptionally cool towards the coup. In fact, the only thing the article seems to be based on is that the US was in contact with the Honduran military before the coup happened - hardly a big surprise.

BBW, please treat all sources of information with the same level of healthy doubt.
 
redrum said:
Harpo....

i'm afraid it's a much darker picture than you paint it my friend....i only wish it were that simple....
Well, I took the trouble to look through your links. I would go so far as to agree that governments do dark and dirty things behind the scenes. Not at all sure why you think anyone would be surprised.

The 9/11 conspiracy theory is so flimsy, it's an embarrassment (and I have looked into it before). Frankly, I find it an insult to the many people who died and were bereaved on that day.

You say things aren't that simple. I think the frame of mind where dark forces are constantly at work is, in fact, an attempt to simplify the messy, unco-ordinated goings-on of the world. It's scary to live in a world where no-one is in control - more comforting to invent an all-powerful group which knows exactly what it's doing.
 
HDM said:
Here's what I'm doing about it, mini. I allow myself the entertainment value of 6 minutes per month of reading conspiracy theories, and I avoid people whose pictures are always dark and who call people they have never met, "my friend." Works for me.

It wasn't you posting the video was it?

I want to hear from redrum. It's all well & good to expose the dark side. But I want to hear what is being done about it. I want to hear about the plan to take back control, etc.
 
mini said:
It wasn't you posting the video was it?

I want to hear from redrum. It's all well & good to expose the dark side. But I want to hear what is being done about it. I want to hear about the plan to take back control, etc.
Anyone attempting to expose the Dark Side will be neutralised. Agent Redrum is testing your loyalty to the Committee of Order - you are now under scrutiny.
 
bigbadwolf said:
What "accomplishments" does Blair have? Zilch. Now he's messing around in the Middle East, ignored by everyone, with no power to do anything, and no respect. He presided over an asset bubble in the UK, whose hangover is severe. What exactly did he accomplish?

To be honest, its this sort of respose that completely undermines the obama bashing and politico-bashing in general. I'm going to guess you're not british, and aren't particularly tuned in to domestic affairs? You can only really claim that new labour was a continuation of thatcherism if you didn't experience either. There's a shit load of achievement to be proud of in education, healthcare, environmental protection, economic stability, growth, unemployment levels etc. You know, the boring stuff that doesn't really grab international headlines. I can get more specific, but this is hardly the place, and I'm not a particular fan of Blair either. Do a google for "blair" and "achievement", you don't have to dig particularly hard. To say he accomplished nothing is just silly. Blaming blair for the asset bubble simply because it inflated during his term is also pretty specious.

harpo said:
I think the frame of mind where dark forces are constantly at work is, in fact, an attempt to simplify the messy, unco-ordinated goings-on of the world.

Spot on. I just don't see the grand strategy. Just opportunism and impulsive decisions which yield tragicomic results.
 
redrum said:
harpo said:
I really don't go for the idea of some sinister group controlling the US and probably the world. It's a step or two more sensible than the 'twin towers plot' and 'Diana was murdered' conspiracies, but it's in the same ball park.

Harpo....

i'm afraid it's a much darker picture than you paint it my friend....i only wish it were that simple....

Let's start by saying that throughout world history Tyranny has always been the norm. tyrannical governments have been the number one cause of killing their own people than all the wars and diseases combined. The united states is an anomaly, an aberration, something that wasn't supposed to be. And there are powerful forces at work right now that are closing down our so called democracy. Efforts are in play right now to destroy the US dollar by design and strip away our sovereignty, while the constitution is trampled and ignored. Think it can't happen? It already has.

i guess i can say that i "woke up" from living in the matrix about 2 years ago after watching Zeitgeist and took the "red pill". that's when i realized that pretty much everything that we think we know is a lie, and i'm not exaggerating. and no, they are not conspiracy theories. The difficulty at first was coming to grips with the fact that such an evil can exist. The second part was connecting the dots and making the connections throughout history and to/from organizations that work to further the agenda of a global elite.

The anglo/European global crime syndicate does not control the entire world, although they sure would like to. Plenty stands in their way i.e. china, Russia and especially radical islam. They are masters however of playing the geo political chess board and molding/shaping public opinion through their control of over 80% of the media. They can create a pretext/justification for just about anything i.e. the Iraq war.

The exact same formula is being used right now to demonize Iran and give a pretext/justification for another war. The CIA already has a history of regime change in Iran when it overthrew democratically elected prime minister Mossadeq in 1953 and installed the Shah.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Mosaddeq

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaGCJmCAJ40

Check out the book Confessions of an Economic Hitman, which goes into detail about the formula that the CIA has used for decades to displace foreign leaders so that our multinational corporations might rob third world countries of their natural resources - all part of building the empire in plain sight without the use of military force for the most part.

http://www.amazon.com/Confessions-E...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1246701494&sr=8-1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTbdnNgqfs8


Their greatest trick was making everybody think they didn't exist.

**************

Loose Change - 911 Truth

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mk7htWPF874

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAS4TIYF68A&feature=related

**************

The Money Masters - How International Bankers Gained Control of America

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-515319560256183936

**************

please take the time to watch all of the videos that I have listed in this and my earlier post with an open mind, without bias and without the pre programmed thoughts that we've all been conditioned to accept as fact since birth. i will be surprised if you still maintain your current mode of thinking. I look forward to your feedback. Pass along to anybody that is interested.


People function to the beat of ´"sound bite" information. Anything more than that requires too much work, limited ability to concentrate, and frankly, is not entertaining.
 
jp said:
There's a shit load of achievement to be proud of in education, healthcare, environmental protection, economic stability, growth, unemployment levels etc.

Hospital waiting lines have come down. More public sector workers have been hired. More youngsters are coming out with A grades in their GCSEs and 'A' levels (though there seems to be some dispute about what this really means). What you say about economic stability, growth and unemployment is questionable. The growth and employment was based on a bubble and by brushing long-term unemployed under the rug ("long-term disability"). All the underlying problems inherited from the Tories have persisted. And they are now revealing themselves with a vengeance as financial services and property takes a hit. Public sector deficits are massively in the red now -- primarily because of these long-term economic problems and the refusal to address them. Blair and Brown continued Tory policies and bought into the Washington Consensus of deregulation, which continues to this day with Alastair Darling's refusal to regulate the City.
 
harpo said:
Well, I took the trouble to look through your links. I would go so far as to agree that governments do dark and dirty things behind the scenes. Not at all sure why you think anyone would be surprised.


Well, like I said, I believe it's a much darker picture than what you think. Yes, I'm sure everybody would agree there is corruption and that govts do bad things. But I'm quite sure that the avg joe does not understand the bigger picture.

like i mentioned, if you really want to invest the time, i would watch all the videos first, then make your judgments. Don't just read the video description, actually invest the time and watch them in their entirety. there is plenty of info out there. all somebody needs to do is actually take the time and do the research while staying away from the major media channels. A couple of good sites are:

http://www.infowars.com/

http://americanfreepress.net/

http://www.canadafreepress.com/

http://www.911truth.org/

In terms of the 9/11 conspiracy theory being an embarrassment and an insult, I have to 100% disagree with you. In fact, I believe it to be an insult to think that the events transpired as we are told to believe. When is the last time you did any investigation into this? A lot of information has come to light recently. There are simply too many holes and too many questions that have not been answered.

You might find this link interesting as it relates to an exiled FEMA videographer living in Argentina who recently released a book about his eye witness accounts at ground zero: http://www.voltairenet.org/article160666.html

False flag operations are the NORM, not the exception. Governments routinely stage events in order to provide a pretext to wage war or pass legislation i.e. Patriot Act, that under normal circumstances would never be passed. Using fear(terrorism, economy, disease, food, environment) and the threat of a faceless/imagined enemy are classic moves. Just look at Pearl Harbor, Gulf of Tonkin incident, blowing up of the Maine...etc.

In terms of viewing things as "simple", I don't follow your logic at all. If anything it's just the opposite of what you stated. It is far more comfortable for a person to believe that things are NOT as bad or dark as they seem - that we've got it all figured out for the most part. That would be going WITH the grain, not against it. It's the path of least resistance and requires the least amount of energy. It's when we begin to think critically and question the info that is spoon fed to us by the propaganda machine is when we begin to exercise our brains and get out of our comfort zones. Btw I never said it was an all powerful group controlling the world....not yet anyway.

in terms of me calling you "my friend", i only meant it as a friendly gesture, no need to get bent out of shape over it. i can see by your comments to mini that your mind is already pretty much made up over the issues. You also seem to have a disdain for anyone who believes in so called conspiracy theories. i think it's an unfair characterization to say that I hold a dark picture of the world. Being aware and being jaded/cynical do not necessarily go hand in hand. It's far easier for you to attack the messenger rather than address the issues in detail.

******************************************************

Mini - what can we do? First, start with ron paul's bill HR 1207 that calls for an audit of the federal reserve: http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h111-1207

"This bill is in the first step in the legislative process. Introduced bills and resolutions first go to committees that deliberate, investigate, and revise them before they go to general debate. The majority of bills and resolutions never make it out of committee."

Contact the members of congress who have not yet signed on as co sponsors: http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/ When/if it gets past the house then we'll have the senate to deal with.
 
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