Paraguay V Argentina, Lifestyle And Taxes

[steveinbsas]

I'd love to get your feedback on some properties. Will post some tomorrow...

OK. I'll be happy to look at them.

 

[mmoon]

Lots of chat here about taxes, but not much about lifestyle. Especially considering the OPer is a single parent and will be relying on nannies while working out of the country, it seems to me that the lifestyle components (including security, education system, social stability) should weigh in just as much. I've spent very little time in Paraguay (by design) because I would not compare it favorably to the lifestyle that Argentina can still offer.

 

[steveinbsas]

Lots of chat here about taxes, but not much about lifestyle. Especially considering the OPer is a single parent and will be relying on nannies while working out of the country, it seems to me that the lifestyle components (including security, education system, social stability) should weigh in just as much. I've spent very little time in Paraguay (by design) because I would not compare it favorably to the lifestyle that Argentina can still offer.

There may not bea compelling reason to talk about the lifestyle in Argentina because it looks like the tax burden alone will prevent this move.

If the bienes personales tax is completely eliminated the picture might change, but I wouldn't bet the finca on it.

There would still be the income tax liability on a world wide income generated by investments of over two million dollars, and that alone would probably kill the move.

I don't think there's much that needs to be said about the Argentine "education system" to someone who has three children and also has " [background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]strong views on education" and doesn't [/background][background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]"believe they need any formal education at all. School is only social." [/background]

[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]I agree with you that security and social stability[/background][background=rgb(252, 252, 252)] are important topics for anyone considering moving to (or remaining in) Argentina and I [/background][background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]think they're worth a thread of their own without an emphasis on taxes or education. [/background]

 

[Rich One]

Your revised budget spreadsheet seems a lot better. But needs refinement figures below in AR Pesos

No allowance for

Home Insurance $$

Car Maintenance is low ..assuming no major blow out
4 tires $8000
Oil Filter Change $1800

Medical Expenses TOO Low for 4 (assuming no major Illness) one doctor`s appt $500 pesos Medications very $$$

School Supplies to low ... one computer per child??

Clothes insufficient.... one pair of jeans $1200 pesos

Public School Tuition. Public is free....

Food $600 a day for five ...?? Beware The maids eat a Lot and take home cleaning prods. and food...

FOUR SQUARE MEALS A DAY FOR 5 PEOPLE AT $30 PESOS EACH MEAL. A MIRACLE---!! USA $ 2 EACH MEAL

 

[steveinbsas]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned inflation in this thread, though it's probably a safe bet that Tres Picos has been reading the current thread on the topic, but it looks like his budget is only for the first year and is based on current prices.

I suggest including an annual thirty percent per year increase in the budget (in pesos), at the least, without counting on anywhere near the same increase in the value of the dollar. If there's a worldwide currency collapse, no city (especially a large one) will be a very good place to be.

PS: And when measurable global cooling (that always accompanies a grand solar minimum) begins in 2018, resulting in massive crop failures above latitudes of 40 degrees north and south of the equator, food shortages could (and probably will) result in mass starvation.

I think everyone should ask themselves where they want to be when that happens and if they will have access to food and water, as well as a way to stay warm and fend off the looters.

PS2: if you don't know about the grand solar minimum (that results in significant cooling in two hundred year cycles), please search for youtube videos by adapt 2030. Also search for presentations by John Casey.

 

[Tres Picos]

Your revised budget spreadsheet seems a lot better. But needs refinement figures below in AR Pesos

No allowance for

Home Insurance $$

Car Maintenance is low ..assuming no major blow out
4 tires $8000
Oil Filter Change $1800

Medical Expenses TOO Low for 4 (assuming no major Illness) one doctor`s appt $500 pesos Medications very $$$

School Supplies to low ... one computer per child??

Clothes insufficient.... one pair of jeans $1200 pesos

Public School Tuition. Public is free....

Food $600 a day for five ...?? Beware The maids eat a Lot and take home cleaning prods. and food...

FOUR SQUARE MEALS A DAY FOR 5 PEOPLE AT $30 PESOS EACH MEAL. A MIRACLE---!! USA $ 2 EACH MEAL

Thanks again for the input.

Home insurance - Isn't that only required for mortgages? If I pay cash it should not be required. Like medical insurance, it's of no use to me.

Medical - Other than early year vaccinations, I've almost never gone to the hospital or used medicine.

Vehicle - I don't drive much. Oil change should be twice a year. Tire change once every 5 years. But I don't know much about cars so I'll bump it up to 2k a month which comes out to 4% of its brand new value (600k vehicle).

School supplies - computer should last 3 years on average. So 1 computer a year is more than enough. They don't even each need their own so this is a splurge.

Clothes - This one I have experience with and I've raised the budget by 50%. If prices are so bad in Argentina I would buy in Asia.

Food - According to this article the typical cost of food for a family of 4 (2 adults and 2 children) is 6k ARS. My budget is 18k ARS.
http://www.infobae.c...a-buenos-aires/
Some commentators disagree while others say it's close. I doubt it's off by a factor of 3. And I don't see how 18k can be too little when there are plenty of families with incomes of less than 30k/month who manage.

Here's the new budget, including childcare and income taxes. What do you think?

 

[Tres Picos]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned inflation in this thread, though it's probably a safe bet that Tres Picos has been reading the current thread on the topic, but it looks like his budget is only for the first year and is based on current prices.

I suggest including an annual thirty percent per year increase in the budget (in pesos), at the least, without counting on anywhere near the same increase in the value of the dollar. If there's a worldwide currency collapse, no city (especially a large one) will be a very good place to be.

PS: And when measurable global cooling (that always accompanies a grand solar minimum) begins in 2018, resulting in massive crop failures above latitudes of 40 degrees north and south of the equator, food shortages could (and probably will) result in mass starvation.

I think everyone should ask themselves where they want to be when that happens and if they will have access to food and water, as well as a way to stay warm and fend off the looters.

PS2: if you don't know about the grand solar minimum (that results in significant cooling in two hundred year cycles), please search for youtube videos by adapt 2030. Also search for presentations by John Casey.

Well, according to my budget it will cost almost 1M ARS / 60k USD per year to raise 3 children in a modest lifestyle. That is before childcare expenses! Hard to imagine prices could keep going up. How would people survive? If prices did suffer inflation, wouldn't the peso necessarily lose value accordingly?

Global climate is exceedingly complex. I do not trust either side but I doubt we are living at such a unique time that we can't weather a few degrees of change one way or the other. Our agricultural technology is amazing and far more food could be produced if needed. So much is wasted and much of the cost comes from things like transportation which have nothing to do with growing conditions like climate, soil, and water. There is an abundance of food even in Africa.

I would imagine Argentina to be a pretty good place.

 

[Tres Picos]

Yes, an irrevocable trust.




It was raised last year to $800,000 pesos and may be raised again this year. I believe it is "supposed" to be eliminated in 2018 or 2019, but that may depend on additional legislation being passed....

Your house looks great. I can't believe it doesn't meet the threshold!

 

[steveinbsas]

Your house looks great. I can't believe it doesn't meet the threshold!

Thanks. I bought it in 2010, when the peso was four to the dollar and thought it has increased since then, the tax valuation is still below $800,000 pesos.

If I sold it today it would be subject to the bienes personales tax, but that doesn't necessarily mean the tax would be paid.

PS: The house is on one "lot" of 5848 mtrs2 and there is another lot of 5848 mtrs2 directly behind it, so that helped keep the tax valuation of the lot with the house lower than if the house was on one lot of 11696 mtrs2.I bought the two properties at the same time.

Since my arrival in 2010 I have been considering subdividing the front property into two lots of 2460 mtrs2 each, leaving an 8 meter wide "driveway" between the two lots to provide an attractive access lane to the lot in the back.

Until recently, however, I was only considering selling the vacant lot next to the one with the 150 mtr2 house plus 75 mtr2 quincho. I am living in. Now I am considering selling the lot with the house (with quincho under construction) and a 100 mtr2 outbuilding that could be converted into a guest house.

I would then build a 100 mtr2 house on the vacant lot and live there.

I don't need to live in a four bedroom house.

PS2: I don't want to sell the lot in the back. I plan to build a couple greenhouses there to grow veggies year round.

 

[Tres Picos]

Would be looking for house with attributes:
- security
- privacy
- within 1 hour of major city
- semi-rural without giving up security
- simple, well-built design
- 4 bedrooms but small floor area of less than 150 sqm
- large lot size of 700+ sqm (this does not seem to be a problem in Argentina!).

Actually, Steve's house looks perfect.

Buenos Aires

http://www.remax.com...r_420241041-140
http://www.remax.com...ilar_361105-176

Mar Del Plata
http://www.zonaprop....e-41453067.html

Mendoza
http://www.inmoclick...a-en-Venta.html