Poverty in Argentina

[Dougie]

Before the pandemic, Peru's economy was actually the only one in South America projected for growth. But I wonder how much of the infrastructure projects are going specifically to the tourist sector or other high end consumers. For instance, the Cuzco-Arequipa train is Chilean-owned I believe, and while very nice and efficient, is also very expensive and has no practical purpose outside of tourism.

The Peruvian government deserves credit for knowing how to milk its tourists attractions ($50 entrance fee for Machu Picchu) but there isn't a lot of evidence of that income being reinvested elsewhere. Public transport and traffic in Lima are probably among the worst in South America, and definitely the worst I've experienced (with Bogotá a distant second). I lived in Callao while volunteering for an NGO and it would take a good 2 hours, and 3 or 4 micros just to get to the city center. I went to Miraflores maybe once it was about a 6 hour round trip journey just to pay US prices for a coffee.

Agreed Lima is a lot more gritty outside the "nice neighborhoods". Even in the middle, lower class neighborhoods in CABA...not counting pompeya, soldati, lugano...they aren't all that bad in my opinion.

I suspect that like in many cases the infrastructure projects are more to support tourism, mining, agriculture than actually making a significant impact on the lives of the common people.

You're right. Traffic in Lima and Bogota is horrendous. Even with their every other day license plate rules.

 

[sergio]

Most cities in the United States don't have one, not much of a benchmark for economic status.

Don't have a subway? Really? I can think of Boston, New York, Newark, Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington, Atlanta, Miami, Cleveland, Chicago, LA, San Francisco etc. I'm sure I've left many out. And where there is no subway there is often a light rail system.

 

[Alby]

Unfortunately, coronavirus has already seen Peru's spectacular decrease in poverty over last two decades turnaround. Hopefully, the country will recover reasonably quickly. One of the reasons Lima's traffic has come to be the third most congested in the world is that quite suddenly millions of its people were able to afford a car. One of the reasons the country is the most wracked by the Odebrecht scandal is the sheel volume and size of the infrastructure projects that have been implemented this century. Whilst there is, of course, huge inequality, and extreme poverty in many parts of the country, by 2017 the national poverty rate had dropped to 20% (from 60% only 14 years before). About a decade ago the poverty rate in Peru dropped below that in Argentina and the gap has only widened since then. I am not quite sure where this idea that Peru might "catch-up" in 15 years comes from. People need to get out more.

 

[Dougie]

Unfortunately, coronavirus has already seen Peru's spectacular decrease in poverty over last two decades turnaround. Hopefully, the country will recover reasonably quickly. One of the reasons Lima's traffic has come to be the third most congested in the world is that quite suddenly millions of its people were able to afford a car. One of the reasons the country is the most wracked by the Odebrecht scandal is the sheel volume and size of the infrastructure projects that have been implemented this century. Whilst there is, of course, huge inequality, and extreme poverty in many parts of the country, by 2017 the national poverty rate had dropped to 20% (from 60% only 14 years before). About a decade ago the poverty rate in Peru dropped below that in Argentina and the gap has only widened since then. I am not quite sure where this idea that Peru might "catch-up" in 15 years comes from. People need to get out more.

I worked and lived in for Peru for a couple years Alby. I believe Peru still has a GDP per capita quite lower than Argentina. The public education is generally worse in Peru, the infrastructure is worse, public transport, the public health system as well.

I think the GDP per capita and public services/infrastructure can catch up in 15 years.

Ceviche thinks I'm crazy, you're telling me Peru is already better than Argentina...I don't know. Just stating my opinion, perhaps I'm wrong.

 

[Alby]

I am just trying to balance the ledger a bit, particularly knocking on the head notions like Lima has no modern railway system. Of course, Peru has enormous problems. Not the least of which is weak political institutions and corruption, with all living ex-presidents currently detained, having been detained, or having shot themselves in the head to stop being detained. And another is the frightening levels of labor force informality. But overall things are (or were, prior to the virus) going consistently upwards whereas as here things have been going consistently downwards. I think more than the poverty rates (which is what this thread started off talking about) will cross over. I know which country I would bet on.

 

[Ceviche]

Ceviche thinks I'm crazy.

No Sir, I mostly agree with your views.

But I fail to understand the contempt for Argentina , which few other contributors have.

 

[garryl]

Hard to believe that the poverty will be at 2001 level. I visited in Argentina in winter of 2002. The economy was colder than the weather. People would take any jobs and work long hours. Night clubs are full of working students or young people could not make ends meet. It seems or I want to believe that people have much more cushion now for a crash. 2001 crash caught people off guard. And people have been trying to save in the last 15 years. Just my guess ..

 

[FrankPintor]

Your personal anecdotal evidence isn't really compelling.

That was a bit childish, wasn’t it? It’s not personal and it’s not an anecdote. You’re going to have to do much better than that.

I’ll just leave you with two Google Earth map references, one leaving Lima to the south and the other to the north, where anyone can find the photos of the wicker shanty villages:

12°26'31"S 76°45'24"W · 139 m
11°45'04"S 77°08'48"W · 55.3 m

I’ve yet to see anything similar here in Argentina.

 

[antipodean]

I worked and lived in for Peru for a couple years Alby. I believe Peru still has a GDP per capita quite lower than Argentina. The public education is generally worse in Peru, the infrastructure is worse, public transport, the public health system as well.

I think the GDP per capita and public services/infrastructure can catch up in 15 years.

Ceviche thinks I'm crazy, you're telling me Peru is already better than Argentina...I don't know. Just stating my opinion, perhaps I'm wrong.

My pondering is if Peru is indeed more “gritty” than Argentina, does poverty manifest itself in the same way as Argentina? Looks can be decieving especially where there is rapid social change. Eg a country that is developing versus a county that is declining.

Usually the expensive things like new housing and landscaped gardens come after things like cell phones, TVs appliances and cars as people get “richer” over time. Over time Peru should get prettier and more “civilized”.

For in example in Brazil, if you look around Rio or SP and see sprawling favelas everywhere you may be forgiven for thinking you are in the third world. Take a look inside those favelas and you realize many people who live there may be “poor” but most have jobs, internet/ cable TV and food to feed themselves and their families as well as things like soap and personal care products. Often this falls above the “poverty” line as these people can survive on their own.

In Argentina you have people living in old apartments in pretty neighborhoods like Palermo that they inherited, yet they are without a peso to spend on food to feed themselves and are living below the “poverty” line. Of course if you go to La Matanza, greater Rosário or some villages in Jujuy you will see what is clearly extreme poverty. Shacks / tents, mud, no sanitation, few utilities, worn clothes, skinny people etc. But 50% of the population suggests as much hidden poverty as obvious poverty. Over time Argentina would get less pretty and more “uncivilized”?

 

[Alby]

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