Public Schools

[ElQueso]

I've heard the same thing about public schools, and I have a kid (well, my sister-in-law, 14, who lives with us) in school here.

I've been told that there are one or two public schools worth anything, but the truth is, even private schools are not much to be thought of, in my opinion, until you get to the level of where the rich send their kids. Those are bilingual and VERY expensive (at laast for Argentina and private schools).

Most private schools will cost anywhere from 300 pesos (really cheap) to about 1000 pesos (the "top" of the "normal") private schools, maybe. I am currently paying 780 pesos a month.

When I lived in the suburbs (I moved back to the city almost 3 months ago), she attended a school that was about 450 pesos a month. The city, at least around the center/recoleta, etc, is more expensive.

The problem I see is that schools here are just not very good, at least at the "normal" private school level, as well as public of course. The administration of the schools is very slipshod. Teachers often don't show up for classes. Or show up real late. The teachers often don't know the material very well and don't teach as much as present information they have been given. When students ask questions, they are told to review the material. History/social teachers can be very openly socialistic and my sister-in-law, in two different schools now, has had to read Las Venas Abiertas de Latina America (not that it shouldn't be read) and then is taught that all problems that Argentina and other Latin American countries have are directly the fault of the unitied States and Europe. They are taught almost nothing of World War II and Argentina's alignment with the Axis powers, trying to maintain a sort of neutrality at the same time, etc. Her math teacher, an Argentina, is very good actually, all the time telling her students that education matters (the only teacher that seems really concerned, as opposed to just having a job "teaching"), but she feels like she is screaming into a wind tunnel.

Another thing to think about - most schools here are not accredited for transfer to the US or Europe, from what I've been told and understand. The expensive private schools, where the rich and foreigners who can afford 2000-2500 pesos a month send their kids, are accredited for such transfers. The reality of that I'm not 100% sure about, though.

And I kind of agree with what gouchobob said related to the powers that be being happy with ignorance (not that he said that was HIS opinion). In my opinion, Latin America suffers still from a sort of twisted fuedal remnant of the old days. There is a definite class hierarchy here and everyone pays attention to it, some more than others. I think there are many elements who are in power, the Kirchners included, who like things just the way they are; it's easy to buy the poor vote, for example, when Cristina sends out trucks laden with fish bricks to feed about 100K people because the prices have risen so much that poor people have a hard time buying decent food (out of millions that are having problems). The poor remember things like that when it comes time to vote, even though it is a stunt that, in that case, lasted what - a week or two? They don't know any better, and the truth is, they are so busy surviving that immediate help like that is what they remember.

 

[ElQueso]

That is why Kansas could ban teaching evolution - its Christian Fundamentalist Board of Education decided that Darwin was wrong.

Until they are challenged in the courts, which function in the US far better than here. At least for now...

 

[mini]

I am really disappointed to hear all this... In the US, there is a huge mix of quality depending on the neighborhood. The schools are always excellent in wealthier neighborhoods (because middle class and up people are better advocates and demand that the schools be up to standard) and the schools are always terrible in the poor neighborhoods. I take it that this is not the case here?

Wealthier neighborhoods have better schools also because schools are funded by property taxes and the wealthier neighborhood schools get more funds. The disparity between good & bad schools sadly is getting worse not better with the housing crisis.

So, it's not always about poor people not demanding good schools. The schools often just don't have the funding.

I don't know how schools are funded here. It would be interesting to know.

I think I heard something about families now being paid if their kids go to school instead of having them out on the streets selling trinkets or asking for handouts.

 

[AlexfromLA]

You are using global median test scores from 2006 to make a very vague point.

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d09/tables/dt09_402.asp

This is a more recent study that also includes Western and Northern Europe for some context

Now, the study you are quoting is directly comparing Argentina which is a third world country with vast income inequality where there is a very small middle class to a first world country with a large middle class.

My statements didn't have anything to do with that.

Of course Beverly Hills has some very good public schools. And of course Compton California has schools that are war zones with huge drop out rates where there are 65 students per 1 underpaid teacher and 10 textbooks to share between all of them etc. That wasn't my point.

The public education system as a whole is severely flawed in the US. Teachers aren't paid well, Infrastructure issues aren't being addressed, overcrowding is a major issue, school materials are scarce. Children are sharing books. The local and State governments don't have enough money to pay for anything. They are shortening days, In some school districts they are experimenting with 4 day school weeks. Something that might become the norm etc. The same issues can be seen here in Argentina, except as the PISA study illustrates, the problems are compounded and exacerbated in extremely poor areas ( which make up the vast majority of South American citizens ).

I wasn't trying to make a political point and I wasn't trying to start an in depth analysis no one is going to follow. If you compare the education in other first world countries the United States is a joke and has some of the lowest test scores. If you directly compare the US to a third world country like Argentina, you will get the same result only reversed.

Obviously there are socio-economic factors that you have to take into account when directly and indirectly comparing the two.

But anyway. My initial statement still stands. The public schools in the US are really bad and getting worse every year ( unless you live in a wealthy neighborhood ). The same can be said about Argentina ( unless you live in a wealthy neighborhood ).

I don't think the problems in the U.S. educational system are the same or worse than in Latin America. The problems here are much more severe. A good discussion of the many problems here are contained in the link below:

http://www.worldfund.org/Education-Gap.html

 

[AlexfromLA]

Until they are challenged in the courts, which function in the US far better than here. At least for now...

Oh Snap,

Whats up cheese. Long time no see.

 

[ElQueso]

I am really disappointed to hear all this... In the US, there is a huge mix of quality depending on the neighborhood. The schools are always excellent in wealthier neighborhoods (because middle class and up people are better advocates and demand that the schools be up to standard) and the schools are always terrible in the poor neighborhoods. I take it that this is not the case here?

People harp about how bad the poor have it in the US. In many cases (not all, but certainly most) the poor do not have as good an education as the rich and upper middle class. That is something that should be fixed (but not by the governemt - government tends to dumb things down to a common level, doesn't tend to raise everyone to a higher standard). But even the poor in the States, in public education, have many, many times a better education (when their parents make them go to school!) than the poor do here. Magnitudes better.

Education is often a cultural thing. In the US, poorer families, as you mentioned, don't seem to care as much about education, and that part of the culture suffers. Not only because of that, for sure. But the US culture, as a whole, tends to keep everything elevated higher than, say, here.

The government here really doesn't care about the people here. They care about power and lining their pockets with money. Tha'ts true everywhere (why government, in my opinion, should be as small as possible, but educated people can hold their government more accountable and make it more difficult). They do just enough here to keep the populace from revolt, and the poorer and more ignorant you are, the lower that threshold is.

I'm sure my words are pissing people off, and that is not intention. I have a bit more insight into this than most expats who are not here with children going to schools because I am involved with schools here, and I had kids in the US who went through all levels of school. I've lived in poor places and middle class places in the States and have seen both and have some ability to compare.

 

[ElQueso]

Oh Snap,

Whats up cheese. Long time no see.

I've been so busy with my move and a ton of work that landed on me that I haven't had time for many extra activities

 

[ElQueso]

The public education system as a whole is severely flawed in the US. Teachers aren't paid well, Infrastructure issues aren't being addressed, overcrowding is a major issue, school materials are scarce. Children are sharing books. The local and State governments don't have enough money to pay for anything. They are shortening days, In some school districts they are experimenting with 4 day school weeks. Something that might become the norm etc. The same issues can be seen here in Argentina, except as the PISA study illustrates, the problems are compounded and exacerbated in extremely poor areas ( which make up the vast majority of South American citizens ).

Just as an example, I read a report that said median salaries nationwide for teachers in the US was around $42K. Agreed that that is not much, but still far, far, far above a teacher's salary here, when accounting for difference in economies and such I think.

Chldren sharing books - that presupposes that the school district buys the books, which is a good thing. Here, the student must buy all their books, and there is quite a trade in books copied on a Xerox machine because not many can afford to go out and pay for an actual book. The teachers send the kids to the internet (most go to locutorios) to research information because event he books that they have don't contain allt he amterial they try to teach.

The schools here already go about a half day, unless you pay for extended time. 7:30 to 12:30 is normal. Or 12:30 to 5:30 if you have an afternoon schedule. My sister-in-law goes to school from 7:30 to 12:30, breaks for about an hour and a half, and returns until 4:00 or 4:30, depending on the day. That costs me almost 300 pesos a month more.

I think the biggest problem in the States is the federal government getting involved and trying to mandate what is going to be studied, tests to ensure everyone is following those mandates, and huge red-tape nightmares that require more non-teacher dollars to keep up with than we should be spending, where we should be paying teachers more. And the teachers unions making sure that teachers who should not be teaching maintain their jobs.

 

[SaraSara]

I don't know how schools are funded here. It would be interesting to know.

They are funded by the Education Department - el Ministerio de Educacion - which in turn is funded (or rather underfunded by Congress), which in turn gets its marching orders from the Presidency.

Argentina's government structure is Federal in name only - most power is centered in, and flows from, Buenos Aires. The judicial and legislative branches of the government are a laugh - the Executive branch has all the power.

 

[ghost]

Quite true.

But the US and Argentina are different when it comes to schools.

Argentine schools belong to the central government and are run by the Ministry of Education, permanently starved for funds. Teachers' salaries are pitiful, something like two thousand pesos per month counting benefits. All children learn from the exact same books, selected by government bureaucrats who generally have some kind of a sweetheart deal with schoolbook publishers and authors.

US schools belong to cities and counties, and are funded from real estate taxes. So, expensive neighborhoods get the best schools, and poor neighborhoods have terrible ones. Schools are run by local boards, who choose the curriculum and the textbooks. That is why Kansas could ban teaching evolution - its Board of Education decided that Darwin was wrong.

Oddly enough, American public school teachers are better paid than those in private schools.

Right on sister Sara..... those "Christian Fundamentalists" you mention are the very same folks that are invading Argentina [BA] by the hundreds. You can identify the pastors easily because they live in Martinez, San Isidro, Pilar and Accusso. Drive new SUVs and dine at Kansas 3 times a week. They will save the villas of Martinez and convert the heathens of San Isidro. Just ask The Voice of Truth [if he's still around]. If you can't find him just Twitter Sarah Palin. But remember the ...the earth is only 5000 years old.