Racism in BA, am I alone?

[Napoleon]

Interracial marriage!
International marriage!
The more we mix the less racism
My daughter love checking OTHER when asked about race.

Zingara's got a plan...

START BANGIN'!!

...of course I wouldn't actually tell my parents that I was bangin' outside my race. And I certainly wouldn't marry outside either.



Unless she was really hot...

...and waited on me hand and foot.

 

[LAtoBA]

Trying living in Africa as a white person some time! I guarantee you, it's something else! (although probably in the reverse to the situation you described).

You're comparing apples to oranges. Europeans colonized Africa, redrew borders further exacerbating relations between African tribes, and subsequently oppressed its people. Are you really shocked by some Africans disdain towards whites given the history? Zimbabwe, South Africa, DRC, Algeria, Rwanda etc. The Rwandan massacre partly stems from the Belgians creating superficial racial differences between the Tutsi and Hutus and playing each group against each other. Not saying it's right but apartheid ended merely two decades ago in South Africa and racial equality in Zimbabwe only 30 or so years ago. For many, memories of that oppression is alive and well. As the population ages I would like to hope any antipathy towards whites dissipates because I do not condone that type of behavior.

Argentina hasn't had any such history so the comparison is completely specious and disingenuous.

In any event the story I have heard from my black friends is a completely different story (at least in West Africa). I have been told that white foreigners are generally received well because they are perceived as being "rich".

It really is a 'human' thing as someone else said.

You're very wrong. Things like sexism and racism aren't a "human" thing. They are learned behaviors that have no basis in science. In fact, race is a fairly new invention used in the US for instance to dissuade the well-documented but rarely discussed miscegenation of poor indentured whites and poor blacks/slaves prior to Bacon's Rebellion. The rich white planters were afraid both groups would rebel and usurp them. Not to mention justifying slavery in the name of race made it that much easier to track and hunt down runaway slaves. This also ensured blacks could not "escape" slavery through religious conversion.

But before that Europeans (Americans included) and Arabs justified slavery through religion (or lack there of) not race. Prior to the 1500's it wasn't about race at all. The problem is we have gotten so caught up in our place in history that we tend to forget 500 years in history is but a mere second.

All that to say prejudice is learned, not innate. So no, I wouldn't settle for saying it's a "human" thing. That's just an easy way to justify stupid and very irrational behavior.

 

[nolonelyplanet]

I get the 'te puedo ayudar' everywhere and I am a blue-eyed whitey.

exactly!

I'm not blue eyes, I'm dark and stuff. Ppl give me the look.

And idk, Argentines are hispanics too, europeans or not, go the the north... buenos aires ppl are not the only argentines.

 

[tez]

You seem to be unaware of the treatment the Irish get from the English; or the Catalonians and Basques from the rest of the Spanish; or the Southern Italians from the Northern Italians; or the Ukranians from Russians. In Europe, people who are the same skin color can show the most extreme prejudice to one another.... How many good examples must there be set for people to mellow out when it comes to prejudice?

Sorry, I'm not sure what I could have put to make you happy, imagine how long my post would have to be to cover all forms of prejudice throughout history! I thought it best to focus on white people prejudicing against darker people, since that's what the OP was commenting on.

Prejudice is definitely a serious, ongoing issue, but do you really not think these things actually are getting better with time and inter-cultural exposure?

As someone else put, this racism is learned, passed down through generations, it's not inherently human and people can and will evolve out of such thinking (maybe just to be replaced by wars between iPhone and Andriod users: "What?! You want to marry HER? But her family is loyal to Apple! What a disgrace!"). It's not optimism, just the observation of a general trend.

 

[Driftline]

Okay, you're comment makes better since to me now.

However, society is getting better on race, but it is far, far from rosey and bright.

 

[DontMindMe]

OP, people here do indeed freak when they hear someone running down the street. I do too, now, a little. I couldn't even hand a little girl's fallen headband back to her mother without her jumping 10 feet in the air when I said "disculpe señora" from behind.

I've always thought that living in Buenos Aires is like living in a very large small town in terms of the people. Oftentimes you find little to no diversity in social groups, and a provincial mindset due to lack of said diversity. And that about sums it up.

I took a taxi to Ezeiza in December last year and the taxista asked me if I like Buenos Aires. I wasn't in the mood to get deep so I just said, yeah, it's awesome, etc. He told me he was glad to hear that, because he'd recently driven a girl from the Dominican Republic to Ezeiza who didn't like the city at all. She said the people were mean to her sometimes. Then he said, "Era negra, pero era linda!" So she was negra, BUT she was pretty. A blatantly racist comment? Depends on who you ask, I guess. I took it to mean that he didn't understand why she was treated poorly, because even though she was darker, she was pretty. Perhaps he was acknowledging that good looks can help a darker sister out here. Or maybe he was just saying she was pretty, even though she was darker, stating it as a fact. Regardless, his comment can be attributed to the whiter-is-better mentality that damn near every white person I've come in contact with has here.

White skin is valued all over Latin America, but since many Argentines are very into their European roots, it's just...different here somehow. Every time a white Argentine asks me my background, and I give the usual hodgepodge of euromutt countries, they all react the same. "Wow..." with this look in their eye, like I'm some white goddess or something. I always explain that I think of myself as American, not European, since I don't have living relatives there and I never knew my great-grandparents, who were the ones who immigrated over. One student actually seemed really disappointed when I said that.

Anthony Bourdain touches on the Argentine national identity in his No Reservations episode here, because he noticed that everyone just went on about being Spanish and Italian, not Argentine. It's an interesting part of the episode. I think being proud of your heritage is cool, but people here seem to be obsessed with it, even the young generations. Maybe in 30 years things will be different.

 

[jazrgz]

I have to disagree with you on this whole notion. I guess in a country where the white population is minor, if you are white you stand out and for instance you are of more value among your peers. Here in Argentina is different, you are correct in this concept, but only because almost everyone is white, so by being white you do not stand out at all, and for instance you are not considered better than your peers.
About the whole european hertiage subject, you are correct also, we are usually fixated on our root, not whether it is european or not (that would not make sense since pretty much almost all of us has it one way or another) but on which part of europe is your heritage from and that is because it kinna defines you a little bit, at least in terms everyday forlklore. If you are of italian heritage you can say you are more stubborn than say someone of german heritage...we know it´s not a certain truth, but sometimes we have fun playing with this notion. (ese flaco es re cabezadura, y claro, es tano ! eheh). Also, we are very traditional here, we always were and always will be, and part of that involves your heritage traditions, you cannot escape it, it becomes a mixture of our argentine traditions and our european heritage tradition. That´s why both a jewish argentian and a german argentinian will have asados as often as possible and play futbol and go to the cancha, but the one would also celebrate hanuka while the other will not.
Among ourselves, we do not inquiry what is your heritage, most times the person´s last name is enough to make that assumption If you ask a foreigner what is his heritage is because we would find it intersting that dispite the fact im argentinian and you are american, we may actually have things in common culturally speaking (eg: italian american vs italian argentinian), it is a way to try to relate to other cultures (when dealing with other latin americans, we will focus on our latin similarities with the same intention). The ones obsessed with our european heritage per se seem to be you guys most of the time, you keep bringing this subject over and over every chance you have and always in a derogative way..kinna like saying..argentinians think they are supperior because the think they european. For a local that never interacts with foreigners (your average joe here) this notion is nonsense, it doesnt even exist and also give the idea that we value more our eurpean heritage than our being argentinian ! this is completaly nonsense staright up. Absolutaley no one here will say im italian or irish instead of argentinian. You will never hear that, specially when abroad, you will most definately say your are argentinian and probably then provide a description of how good it is to be one (a bit cocky i guess, but you cannot say we would deny our nationality), and if it comes up, you may then mention your heritage if you feel you may find something in common with the other person.
There´s a couple of notions about us that usually bothers foreigners and i still cannot figure out why:
Most argentinians have eurpean heritage (from all over europe).
All argentians are extremaly proud of being argentinians (whether it is correct or not to be so it´s a differnt story)
i guess these two notions get in conflict with two preconceptions americans-europeans have about latin america:
1) everyone in latin america is brown
2) everyone in latin america thinks of americans-europeans as the best thing ever happend to humanity
They find that these two preconceptions do not apply here and i guess that´s why it bothers you so much.
I´d like to clarify that not all american-europeans feel this way of course and that i agree than in many areas it is actually true that americans-europeans are better or way better in many things they do

 

[marksoc]

Yeah it's terrible.

Once, I went to a bra store. BRAS, OK! I NEED TO TAKE MY TIME.

And i went there after work, i dont produce myself a lot when going to the office, and i spent like 30m looking for the right bra.

The girl told me "negra (which is very offensive here), dejate de joder, vas a o comprar o qué?" i was about to pay USD100 for a bra. i took my stuffs and leave.

once i went to a bar, a super annoying guy started talking to me. where i was coming from and shit like that. then he asked me if i wanted to stay here the rest of my life, i said no. he said: "vos que sabés, si sos negra y pobre" jajaja.

i havent been in a place like this where money is completely associated with your sking color or how you look.

Nope. He said "negra" in the sense of "chabona" (hey you, person!, are you going to buy something or what!). The second one was insensitive (what do you know, you are black and poor!), and it was a slur generated in his disappointment not to have you here forever. I have rarely seen a country (ok, I am a local) that is eagerly to accept and easily grant citizenship to everybody like this one.

 

[DontMindMe]

jazrgz, I get what you are trying to say. Yes, everyone will say they are Argentine first, but the next thing out of their mouth is "We're all Spanish/Italian/European here!!" Subtext (not from everyone, but a lot of people): European and therefore better, unlike those other Latin American countries. I can't tell you how many lecture I've gotten on this subject from taxi drivers. People just blatantly saying that Argentina is better because it's "European." Yes, said just like that.

Yeah, there are a lot of white people here. But tell me, if two white Argentine girls with almost identical faces and bodies are walking down the street, who is going to get the most looks and comments from Argentine men? The one with the more olive skin, brown hair and brown eyes? Or the rubia with lighter hair, light eyes and whiter skin? You can replace women with babies in this example, and it's the same. Whiter/blonder/lighter is considered better and more beautiful here, just like the rest of Latin America.

1) everyone in latin america is brown
2) everyone in latin america thinks of americans-europeans as the best thing ever happend to humanity
They find that these two preconceptions do not apply here and i guess that´s why it bothers you so much.

Preconception #1 was dashed when I was 8 years old and met my mom's blonde haired blue eyed friend from Mexico City. Then, once I started traveling, I realized there are people of all different colors damn near everywhere. Honestly, in the age of the internet there's really no excuse for a lot of the ignorance I've heard from the people here. I've never in my life met anyone who believes #2, except for maybe an art history professor in college who was crazy for Europe, and considering his profession, for good reason.

I know I'm generalizing here, and a lot of people aren't going to like that, but believe me when I say I don't want to feel this way. It's simply my opinion, based on my own personal observations over the past two years, especially after I started dating a darker guy from another Latin American country and began to pick up on how differently he is treated here. The whiter is better thing is culturally ingrained throughout all of Latin America, sitting in the subconscious of damn near everyone, and I just think it sucks. That's all.

There are exceptions, as always. For example, when we go out to eat, waiters usually assume we're tourists passing through. They ask us where we're from. The last time, the waiter responded "Qué linda mezcla, che!" But that almost never happens.

 

[sergio]

Jazrgz, It really isn't true that most Argentines are "white". Outside of Barrio Norte there are millions of people of mixed race. For that matter you can see them in the Microcenter and Barrio Norte but less so than in other parts of the city, the province of BA and in other provinces, especially the north.