Railway System Neglected In Argentina

[Lobo Marino]

Generally trains seem to work well in densely populated countries only - you need to reach a certain number of potential passengers per km railway. For countries like Argentina Buses (resp. trucks on the cargo side) are the much better options since the roads are already there... In Europe high speed trains are usually more expensive then flying for distances larger then 600 km, but offer a bigger flexibility and saving of time (up to abt the same distance, taking check-in and baggage claim, airport-to-city transfers into account).

Regarding Argentina in particular, I remember the new (refurbished) Talgo trains being imported from Spain and put on service from Constitution to Mar del Plata about two years ago:
http://www.tomamateyavivate.com.ar/transporte-argentino/manana-empiezan-a-correr-los-nuevos-trenes-talgo-entre-buenos-aires-y-mar-del-plata/ [esp.]
A lot of noise was made around this new service including the inauguration of a new rail/bus terminal in MdP by HM herself. While the trains speed was limited to about 70 km/h due to the bad state of railroads, it was announced that renewal of rails will commence shortly.

Out of curiosity I took one of the first services - while it was a quiet, not unpleasant, ride it took me about two hours longer than a bus would have taken me. Thouh travelling first class, seating was comparable to a Semi-cama at best while prices superseded a micro suite service by about 30% at that time... The biggest disappointment was the board restaurant not offering anything but tea and coffee. Each wagon had an azafata which provided a small snack (some crackers or alfajores and a bottle of water, if I recall correctly) and earphones (nicely packed, but still useless). it seemed they were really trying hard to make it a special experience to ride this train, while not having the slightest idea of what they were actually doing...

After just 15 months of service money seemed to have run out and the service is being suspended indefinately:
http://portaldetrenes.com.ar/articulos/237/el-gobierno-suspendio-el-contrato-con-talgo-para-el-mantenimiento-de-trenes [esp]
It says that expenses for the maintenance of the wagons had been too high, since specialized personnel had to be flown in from Spain on a regular basis... Fortunately no attempts were made to continue the service without proper maintenance...

I think this serves as a perfect example of how this kind of infrastructure pojects are commonly handled in Argentina. It would have been much wiser to invest in the existing tracks, instead of buying shiny cars. But they serve better as a background on press photos, I guess...


errr... and btw the Eurostar is not a German train - the German high speed train is the ICE (currently ICE 3 being the most recent generation).

 

[sergio]

Sergio, with all respect, your comment has nothing to do with reality. BOS to NY on the ACELA takes 3:45, just about as long as it takes to drive there and the service is decent but nothing to scream about. In comparison, the TGV from Paris to Marseilles (a 6 hr drive) makes it there in 2:45 and with much better amenities, and at a much lower price. This is in spite of the fact that France is not nearly as rich in terms of GDP as the US. When I used to travel BOS-NY before the Acela was introduced it used to take 4 hours. 20 years later, they've shaved 15 minutes off the travel time and tripled the price to where its sometimes cheaper to fly.

I understand you may have enjoyed your trip in Amtrak's 1st class sleeper cars, but I think the conversation here has more to do with developing a mass transit system for everyone, not just the well to do.

ACELA is not as fast as TGV - however it makes the trip a lot faster than driving New York to Washington (2 hours 45 minutes or less on ACELA). The most travelled part of the corridor is New York to Washington, not New York to Boston however despite this in 2012 Amtrak carried more people between New York and Boston than all airlines combined. In the same year Amtrak carried more than three times more people between New York and Washington than all the airlines combined. This is a very serious component of the US transportation system. As for amenities, I'd disagree with you. First class on ACELA is more comfortable than European first class. ACELA coach class is more comfortable and spacious than Eurostar economy class.

The conversation here started out discussing Argentine railways and their decline. The subject was not specifically mass transport which is local transport but national rail service which is long distance, Buenos Aires-Atlantic coast, Buenos AIres- Mendoza, Buenos Aires- Rosario-Cordoba, Buenos AIres-Tucuman etc. When Amtrak was cited as a bad model I responded that it was a good model. Amtrak is a government subsidized rail corporation that operates a national network of safe, modern and comfortable trains. While speeds may not be up to those of the fastest European trains (not all European trains are high speed, by the way) the service is good by international standards and relatively fast and very comfortable on ACELA. Argentina does NOT need a European style high speed system. What is needed here is a safe, reasonably comfortable and affordable national network such as the one that existed fifty years ago. Restoring the country to the same level of service that existed half a century ago would be a great step forward. We are not ready for bullet trains.

 

[sleslie23]

Did you read my post? How many Amtrak trains have you actually ridden? acela Express from Washington to New york and Boston compares favorably with Europe. Expensive though. First class prices are wildly expensive. The transcontinental trains are very comfortable. I had a room last year with a tolet and shower.

How many Amtrak trains have I ridden? More than you apparently. I've gone between Boston and New York numerous times, and it's not bad, but hardly compares with Europe. It's much slower and delays are more common.

I've also taken two cross-country trips (back in the days when it was more expensive to fly) and more trips in California than I can remember. I can tell you that other than the routes on the east coast, the rest of the Amtrak system sucks. They may be comfortable, but you'll need it. With the delays and cancellations, you might be spending a few extra days on the train.

Just curious, have you actually been on a train in Europe?

 

[sergio]

How many Amtrak trains have I ridden? More than you apparently. I've gone between Boston and New York numerous times, and it's not bad, but hardly compares with Europe. It's much slower and delays are more common.

I've also taken two cross-country trips (back in the days when it was more expensive to fly) and more trips in California than I can remember. I can tell you that other than the routes on the east coast, the rest of the Amtrak system sucks. They may be comfortable, but you'll need it. With the delays and cancellations, you might be spending a few extra days on the train.

Just curious, have you actually been on a train in Europe?

Yes, I have travelled extrensively by train in Europe and have covered a very large part of the Amtrak system, Canadian system, Australia, Japan, all of Argentina's including lines that no longer exist, Mexico, Panama, South Africa, etc.

As I pointed out, Amtrak between New York and Boston is not as fast as it should be due to curves and the need for a new right of way (this presents major eminent domain issues) however New York-Washington is fast though not up to top European speeds. In terms of comfort, ACELA is much nicer than Eurostar. Eurostar economy seats are cramped. Acela's coach seats are roomier and more comfortable. First class on ACELA is exceptional and comes with good meals. Price wise Eurostar is extremely expensive in first class; Amtrak is expensive but prices are more affordable if you book in advance. On long-distance trains I have found a huge improvement in Amtrak. Sleeping cars on the East Coast are relatively new and generally well-designed. I don't see how Europe has anything better in this regard- and prices for a private room sleeper (you never share with strangers in the US as in Europe) are extremely high even with advance purchase.

I am not disputing that the western European rail sytstem is more developed that that of the US. European nations have made this a priority and invested vast amounts of money in their rail sytstems. Spain put billions into high speed trains - their heavy investment has sadly contributed to the country's current economic woes. You won't see the Spanish inaugurating any new high speed trains for some time as a result. France has achieved remarkable speeds and Britain, despite the sell off of British Rail and the resultant multitude of private railways, has a generally good system even though they have killed off just about every sleeping-car service and now have only one line in the whole country that offers restaurant car service! What I was trying to point out is that Amtrak offers a viable rail system, generally on time and reliable with a high level of comfort. Where someone got the idea that their safety record is poor is beyond me. Rail is the safest mode of transport, not the most dangerous. My point was that Amtrak has proven to be a good model for Argentina. If Argentina had a rail system even remotely commensurate with Amtrak's the country would have a decent national rail system. That is not to say that Amtrak should not be more heavily subsidized and that the US should not have a more developed rail network. I totally agree with this but it is not in the mindset of US governments to implement such a strategy. I had hoped that Obama would initiate major high speed rail projects and increase Amtrak;'s subsidies but that has not happened. Even so, what currently exists in terms of a national rail system is not so bad given the antipathy of Congress and the car culture that has long dominated the US.

What Argentina needs is to return to the system it had fifty years ago. That would mean reviving the network that existed then with multiple lines radiating from Buenos Aires along with a number of shorter distance provincial services. There is no need for a bullet train or anything even approaching Amtrak's best. Argentina is not ready for that. If you take a look at the vast number of people who ride the existing trains to Cordoba and Tucuman you can see that there is a demand for rail service, especially when state subsididies make ticket prices lower than micros. Argentina needs a basic and reliable national rail passenger system. Speed at this point is just not an issue. It needs decent passenger equipment, good maintenance of rights-of-way and a well trained and decently paid employees. If Nestor Kirchner had been serious about his much professed love of the railways and wish to revive passenger trains, he would have implemented an FDR style Works Projects program that would have accomplished that while putting thousands of people to work.

While I agree that the US should have a better rail system, I repeat that what is there is generally good and underrated because so many people have it in their brains that only Europe and Japan have good trains. I'm going to travel from Washington to Chicago on Amtrak early next year. I booked a Bedroom with private bath and shower at the lowest rate by doing so in advance. The rate was fair. I believe the same distance trip would cost me more in Europe and under less comfortable conditions. It's possible thatv we could be delayed due to winter weather conditions but I'd be surprised if the trip was a disaster. I wish there were more trains in the US but that won't change until the people and government change their attitude. Meanwhile Amtrak is selling a lot of tickets It is hard to get a sleeper unless you book well in advance. On the whole, the US model of subsidizing passenger trains under Amtrak has turned out to be successful after decades of struggle. Amtrak is a good employer with high safety standards. The company is responsive to passenger needs.

Finally let me point out that the US model that has been criticized here is NOT the same as the Argentine model. In the US Amtrak was created by Congress to asssume responsibility for most long distance passenger trains. When most private railways handed over responsibility to Amtrak the US government subsidized the remaining passenger network. At first there were massive cuts in the system but over the decades a lot of service has been restored and imporoved . The subsidies never ended and, unlike Argentina, subsidies are scrutinized by Congress. Unlike Argentina, there is accountability for rail subsidies. Congress has even debated what type of food service the company should offer -- some congressmen insisting that restaurant cars be abolished! I can not imagine a debate in the Argentine Congress over how rail subsidies should be spent. You won't find members of Congress in Argentina riding trains as you will on the Northeast Corridor trains in the US. Vice President Biden, by the way, was a frequent rider of Amtrak's Northeast Corrdior service before he bacame VP. I would argue that Amtrak is more than a satisfactory model for Argentina.

 

[bkoustav]

I guess railways as mass mode of transit has to be supported and most of the times subsidized by government. Railways prices have to be kept lower in poor or developing countries for the benefit of people.

In India the railway system is huge, extensively used but barely covers its expenses. The expansions are mostly funded by government. However inspite of having huge manpower (1.3 million railway employees) it is quite efficient.

As rightly mentioned in previous post, Argentina does not need speed but decent network at this time.

 

[sergio]

I guess railways as mass mode of transit has to be supported and most of the times subsidized by government. Railways prices have to be kept lower in poor or developing countries for the benefit of people.

In India the railway system is huge, extensively used but barely covers its expenses. The expansions are mostly funded by government. However inspite of having huge manpower (1.3 million railway employees) it is quite efficient.

As rightly mentioned in previous post, Argentina does not need speed but decent network at this time.

This is true - I know Indian Railways having ridden extensively throughout India. Passenger trains almost always require state subsidies. In the case of the US other modes of transport are subsidized either directly or through construction of highways. Argentina's rail system ran well under the British. Its decline started with Peron. By the time Menem assumed office it was a disaster. Unfortunately, Menem permitted the brerak up of the railways without maintaining subsidies or controls so that long distance passenger trains could continue to operate, only better than before. Privatizing the railways could have worked had the state required the continuation of important long distance routes which had to be subsidized along with regulation and government oversight. This did NOT happen. As we can see, subsidies have a way of disappearing in Argentina while the state takes no interest in monitoring safety and general maintenance contidions, etc.

 

[robwerwe]

Here's a short answer to a question that deserves better;
England and other countries who were ahead in the manufacturing process and didn't particularly want any South American completion, would finish the products and ship them back to Argentina for sale. To this day, there is little manufacturing in Argentina or Latin America. A very good explanation of this appears in a book by Galliano; "Open Veins of Latin America."

Love how you've twisted this to some how blame the English for building a great system.

 

[ARbound]

The train system here in Arge is disgusting, and makes me very sad. I've taken the Belgrano line and the Mitre (Rat's Nest On Wheels) line and it's just depressing.

I love trains, and I take them wherever I go. I still want to take a train to Patagonia via the broken remnants of the State railway (with buses inbetween of course).

I wish the government would renationalize the railways and actually try to make them good an working. I'm so sick of seeing me being the only one who pays to take the commuter trains, that trains move with people hanging off them/being completely unusable for the elderly, people with kids or disabilities, and how the corrupt unions want huge raises so drivers can sleep while not working! (And I'm a socialist and I hate the train unions!)

As for AMTRAK, It's still better than what Arge has, though it's no model. Done Vancouver to Seattle a few times, NYC to Providence, and Buffalo to NYC, all cheap and good service + Free WiFi. I've taken VIA Rail in Canada and It's slow, ridiculously overpriced ($200+ to do Toronto-Ottawa in Economy sometimes, and it's the same time as driving, cheaper to take your car as you'll get there faster and pay less). Europe (except for the UK) is great, and that includes Italy. I love TrenItalia and take it everywhere I can, and Italo is pretty nice too.

My rating of trains I've taken:

Good Trains: TrenItalia, OBB, SBB, DB, SNCF, SJ
OK Trains: AMTRAK, Aeroexpress
Sub Par: VIA, Virgin/Former NR, ONCF
Bad: Mitre, Belgrano

Anyways, Argentina has a long way to go, especially compared to what it used to be.

Here's a pic of current rail here.

 

[robwerwe]

I wouldn't say Virgin are sub par, not the best I agree but they have a pretty decent service and if you book in advance you can go from London to Manchester for around £30, fairly quickly too. Of course it should be more like TVG, but hopefully that will come with HS2. Funny how people moan about UK trains not being up to standard of the French and German then protest when we build a high speed like.

 

[sergio]

"As for AMTRAK, It's still better than what Arge has, though it's no model. Done Vancouver to Seattle a few times, NYC to Providence, and Buffalo to NYC, all cheap and good service + Free WiFi. I've taken VIA Rail in Canada and It's slow, ridiculously overpriced ($200+ to do Toronto-Ottawa in Economy sometimes, and it's the same time as driving, cheaper to take your car as you'll get there faster and pay less). Europe (except for the UK) is great, and that includes Italy. I love TrenItalia and take it everywhere I can, and Italo is pretty nice too."

ARbound...Yes, it is true that the rail system is pathetic in Argentina. Last I checked the train still runs to Bahia Blanca though the sleeper was withdrawn a long time ago. I went one day to Constitucion a couple of years ago but the sleeper was out of service that day. I did not want to sit up all night on a miserable plastic chair; they refunded my money. From Bahia Blanca you can take a bus to Viedma. The train from there to Barioloche is OK -- at least it was a few years ago. The sleepers are very basic but decent - at least they used to be.

I don't know why you think Amtrak is so mediocre. Coaches are just as comfortable as economy class in UK or Europe - or better. Sleepers are better than just about anywhere in the world. You said that the price was right. WIFI was available. Speed on the routes you took was not impressive, admittedly but it is not great in lots of places in Europe. VIA Rail has become expensive despite all the subsidies. I assume Canada is cutting back.

I agree with another poster that UK trains can be quite good. If you book ahead fares can be reasonable or cheap. Last June I travelled from London to Scotland and back. First class was just fine and moderately priced. As I recall about £140 return with considerable advance purchase but I did not take the sleeper -- it was prohibitively expensive in a single room. I don't like to share with strangers, No dining-car any more. Meals at your seat in first; trolley in economy.