Return To Ba/still Worthwhile?

[sergio]

I guess everyone has a different experience. For me the cost of my apartment got out of sight. Expensas were more than I'd pay in a lot of big US cities but that wasn't the only problem. The building management (we went through several management companies) was dishonest. Money was stolen and we were assessed a lot in ongoing "expenses extraordinarias". The consorcio was impossible to deal with. Every meeting ended in insults and fighting with nothing getting done. Neighbors played loud music, had parties until the early morning hours. Power cuts, maintenance problems, etc. It just got to be too much.

Almost all of my BA friends are Argentine. Just about all of the expats I have known have left. Most people I know voted for Macri and feel more optimistic but their patience is wearing thin now. I have a couple of friends who are trying to emigrate.

I think you've decided to return so what we say won't make any difference but from my perspective all the negativity here should tell you something. If BA were a great destination for work and long term living just about everyone would say that you should come. That's not the vibe I'm getting here.

 

[Ceviche]

The last 2 times that I flew to EZE from the U.S. were in April and on 18 July. Both flights had about 7 U.S. passport holders.

You walked around the plane with a pen and paper asking everyone - Excuse me Sir, May I know what country's passport do you hold"

 

[Daniel82]

LOL, actually as you mention, with the primarily 'negative' (albeit I would say, realistic) vibe I am doubtful. Some people say there is now more variety and that people are optimistic... Others say don't consider moving back 'ni en pedo'... As I mentioned before, the draw to BS As was never being able to live 'lavishly' for cheap or in the typical 'ex pat bubble' which as I mentioned, I never really did. It was nice to earn a considerably more than standard (though in pesos) salary, but I wouldn't say my life back in the day was over the top. And I do speak Spanish though I think in some things ignorance is bliss.

 

[garryl]

the problems I refer to are landlords who do nothing, getting guarantees from argentines who own apartments, paying short term high rents because you are not a citizen, and so on.
My apartment, of course, has expensas, like every apartment in the city. But I live in a building with only 5 units, so our consorcia is pretty small and easy to deal with. We have some building repairs, which we have to pay, but i tend to do most small repairs myself- plumbing, electrical, and so on. And my expensas are far from $900 a month. as in, less.
I also managed to get a bank account, ten years ago, so I can pay my own bills online.
Again, my real estate taxes in Argentina are a fraction of similar taxes in the USA- property taxes on an apartment the size of mine if it was located in Seattle, (where it would be worth a half million to 1 million dollars) would be a minimum of 6 grand a year, USD. My argentine taxes are a small fraction of that.
Expenses on a condo in downtown seattle, which cost, say $500 k US, would run at least $500 a month, probably closer to $1000, in addition to the real estate taxes, mortgage payments, and insurance.
Which means that, compared to a similar cost apartment, I save at least ten thousand dollars a year for BA versus Seattle. Of course, prices are generally higher in NYC or San Francisco, so you would save even more.

I know, if I lived in Bumfu*k, Texas, it would be cheaper- but I dont, and I wont. Compared to a major city in the USA, with comparable culture, restaurants, public transit, parks, and so on, Buenos Aires is much cheaper for how I live. Your mileage will of course vary, which is my main point
Everybody is different- but the monthly costs of owning an apartment in Buenos Aires are much cheaper for me than owning an apartment I would live in, in most US cities.

I would completely agree- the expats still here mostly are here cause they like it, not cause its cheap.
I have never lived places just because they are cheap- and wont.
I was never friends with the floaters who were here for a year or two cause it was cheap, and who then moved on- they are just not particulary interesting to me- my friends in BA are people who work hard, do interesting and unique things, and want to be here, whether they are expats or locals. I have been to "cheap" places, like Sayulita, or Phuket or Kuta- and found them soul-less and boring.

I agree that the living cost and owning real estate in Argentina are not more than those in US. It just becomes a lot more expensive now. Argentina is still interesting and Argentine women are beautiful and tough Ceviche would agree with that. It would be nice if the living cost remains low as before. Phuket is a stupid place, I would not live there on a long term or short term base. What I am trying to say is that there are parts of Europe used to be expensive, but now are more affordable than Argentina. Life is equally interesting as in BsAs, and you can hop around Europe easily. Europe (Sothern Europe, especially PIGS= Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Spain), unlike Asia, suffered from economic stagnation badly. The living standard is starting to drift lower, kinda like Argentina did 60 years ago. If you are retired and on a limited budget, or you like your dinero to go a long way, it's not a bad idea to live in Europe for a few years, and come back to embrace Argentina when it becomes affordable again, if you can do it.

 

[Rich One]

I agree that the living cost and owning real estate in Argentina are not more than those in US. It just becomes a lot more expensive now. Argentina is still interesting and Argentine women are beautiful and tough Ceviche would agree with that. It would be nice if the living cost remains low as before. Phuket is a stupid place, I would not live there on a long term or short term base. What I am trying to say is that there are parts of Europe used to be expensive, but now are more affordable than Argentina. Life is equally interesting as in BsAs, and you can hop around Europe easily. Europe (Sothern Europe, especially PIGS= Portugal, Ireland, Greece and Spain), unlike Asia, suffered from economic stagnation badly. The living standard is starting to drift lower, kinda like Argentina did 60 years ago. If you are retired and on a limited budget, or you like your dinero to go a long way, it's not a bad idea to live in Europe for a few years, and come back to embrace Argentina when it becomes affordable again, if you can do it.

Portugal and Spain my favorites because of the language and proximity. Greece and Ireland a bit further away. City choices Valencia, Malaga Coast, Fuengirola. Algarve, albufeira.


Finish colony in Fuengirola

 

[Jaredberryman]

I have been here for almost 12 years, so I can make a comparison. Here are some things that changed:

- Compared to 12 years ago, things are drastically more expensive. It basically costs more than some first world countries for most things. You can still find some cheap inexpensive rentals, but that is if you are renting long term, and the temporary apartments are extremely expensive, and crappy as well. Food is much more expensive. Restaurants are much more expensive than the USA, where I am from. Pretty much everything went up. I don't recommend buying a property here at all--they are seriously overpriced right now.
- Compared to 12 years ago, they drastically improved the public parts of the city. Yesterday I went downtown for the first time in a while, and Retiro was super nice and remodeled, the train was not so overcrowded (lots of offices moved out to Zone Norte by the river), and it was clean with nothing torn up. Almost no vendors and crazy people lurking around Retiro. The subway is much nicer now, and some bus lines have even been improved as well (my wife took one with a tv the other day up front). All of the public type services or public stuff has taken a big step up, from the Japanese gardens to the planetarium to the bike baths that are now everywhere. The city is looking a lot better, cleaner, and is more organized in general than before. Spring in Palermo is absolutely amazing. Once has also been upgraded, although I haven't seen what that looks like yet.
- It's about as dangerous, more or less, as it was 12 years ago. I don't think this has improved, but it hasn't gotten worse either.
- Bureaucracy has improved drastically. Things are a lot more organized and easier to deal with than beforehand. You can ask for a turno on line. However, be aware that although things have improved, they are still a huge pain in the neck.
- Although inflation is a serious problem still, compared to the last decade, it seems it has improved somewhat. Inflation is a major problem, but it seems to be a little bit more under control now than it was during the latter years of Cristina Kirchner, where it must have been 40 or 50 percent inflation per year.

I can't think of a lot of other changes. There's still a big night life, but other than these things, I don't see a lot of changes. Some are good changes, some are bad. I went to NY a couple of years ago and used their public transportation. The subway was absolutely awful (super rundown looking) compared to the BA subway. It's a big huge Latin American city, but honestly, it's probably the nicest and most well organized one that I have seen (with maybe Santiago competing or exceeding). If their subway can be better maintained than New York's, they've got something going for them. Just beware that you will pay out the nose for every little thing. I mitigate this by only buying anything when I travel to the USA (clothes, shoes, electronics, etc.).

 

[Somewhereinba]

Basic male haircut costs the same in Argentina and Australia - approx 15USD.

Average salary close to $1500 USD in Argentina, $4000-5000 USD in Australia... Please explain - the only explanation I have is people here charge what they want and the market absorbs it - there is no real price discovery that forces prices to stay down. Its like every industry behaves as its own mafia where everyone agrees to fix prices high (eg supermarkets).

This country is its own worst enemy when it comes to pricing things - its an absolute clusterfuck.

 

[Ries]

My life is not about prices.
of course, like everyone else, I have to make money somewhere, and need to spend it on various things.

In Argentina, my first rule is always, buy local. I eat argentine foods, drink argentine beverages, wear argentine clothes, and on down the line.
I am perfectly capable of cutting my own hair- but my haircuts in the USA cost much much more than they do in Argentina. A generic hipster male haircut at Rudys, the big chain from Seattle, is $33.00 USD.
Australia must, indeed, be a land of milk and honey, if everything is so cheap, and salaries so high- inflation in the US, where I live, has been steady and silent, most things you actually need somehow escape the official tallies. Rent, gas, insurance, health care, restaurant prices- in my area of the US, all have gone up by huge amounts in the last ten years, and almost all are much higher than Buenos Aires.
Europe, I cant speak for- I dont live there. I dont doubt that Greece, or Portugal, are cheaper.
But pretty much any city on the West Coast of the US is more expensive, day to day.

I am in Argentina for the people, the culture, the architecture, the music, the food (yes, I like the pizza) for the unique mix that is the city and the country.
If those things dont appeal to you, why come?

 

[citygirl]

I think in many areas, Argentina has advanced. There is recycling now. Public transportation has improved. The bus lanes are a big move forward from a traffic perspective. The food scene has skyrocketed both in terms of the variety of cuisine available and quality of food in many restaurants. (although I think the quality of meat has decreased). Doing tramites is approximately a million times better now than it used to be. In other areas, things have definitely gotten worse.

I say this all the time but you CANNOT compare dollar to dollar costs. What you need to compare is percentage of average salary for those costs. Buenos Aires may be 10x cheaper in dollar costs in rent for example. But the real question is what percentage of your salary are you paying in rent in Seattle vs BA for example? And then extrapolate that towards everything else. I don't think rent is actually *that* egregious is Cap Fed but restaurants and the rest, yep.

My costs, living 2 hours from a major city in the US and in a fairly wealthy bubble - my food costs (with the exception of meat) are a lot lower than they were in Cap Fed. Wine/beer - cheaper. Restaurants, cheaper. Utilities, a lot more. Health Insurance, a lot more here. Insurance for cars, house, etc, - cheaper.

FWIW - I don't miss having a business in Argentina AT ALL. I do love Argentina and am very happy to go back in "tourist" mode to appreciate all the wonderful things that the country has to offer. It's great to go back, eat steak, drink wine, look at the gorgeous scenery, walk around, have hours and hours of chatting with friends over an asado and being relaxed. But the day-to-day stress - not so much.

 

[garryl]

My life is not about prices.
of course, like everyone else, I have to make money somewhere, and need to spend it on various things.

In Argentina, my first rule is always, buy local. I eat argentine foods, drink argentine beverages, wear argentine clothes, and on down the line.
I am perfectly capable of cutting my own hair- but my haircuts in the USA cost much much more than they do in Argentina. A generic hipster male haircut at Rudys, the big chain from Seattle, is $33.00 USD.
Australia must, indeed, be a land of milk and honey, if everything is so cheap, and salaries so high- inflation in the US, where I live, has been steady and silent, most things you actually need somehow escape the official tallies. Rent, gas, insurance, health care, restaurant prices- in my area of the US, all have gone up by huge amounts in the last ten years, and almost all are much higher than Buenos Aires.
Europe, I cant speak for- I dont live there. I dont doubt that Greece, or Portugal, are cheaper.
But pretty much any city on the West Coast of the US is more expensive, day to day.

I am in Argentina for the people, the culture, the architecture, the music, the food (yes, I like the pizza) for the unique mix that is the city and the country.
If those things dont appeal to you, why come?

Yes, Greece, or Portugal, are cheaper now, a lot cheaper.