Soldiers who should face a firing squad before they die of natural causes

[mercjoe]

Yes, just as tired as they were about terrorists. But those killers are free and talking about freedom and democracy.

Well, no offense but you seems to be missinformated.

The research about what happend shows that they killed and kidnapped many busisness men just to robb their assets.

They did the same with many people, Estela de Carloto included. They were criminals and they behave like criminals.

What about the kidnapped babies? They sold them.

They also raped female and pregnant prisioners and cut their genitals (Masacre de Margarita Belen).

Don t forget the torture to men and pregnant women.

And, of course, the hidden assesination with Videla saying on national TV that there weren t desaparecidos, thet they are in Cuba or Paris.

So, yes, they are criminal and they deserve to be in Jail.

I guess that people didn t take justice by their own hands because this is precisely what happend during the 70 s and everybody was tired about political violence. And everybody wanted justice, and they finally found it.

Regards

 

[Bajo_cero2]

Why are soldiers behaving legally and even morally when following orders they murdered British soldiers retaking their land, but soldiers who were following orders from the same people to murder guerrilla are despicable?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_convention

There is the answer. There is no military prosecuted by killing during combat. However, this is not what happend here. They raped, mutilated, torture and killed prisioners. And they hided the corps because they knew it was a crime. And a small percentaje of who they killed were guerrilleros, most of the victims were simple peronistas or union leaders. Some other were victims of simple robbery.

Regards

 

[Bajo_cero2]

Yes, just as tired as they were about terrorists. But those killers are free and talking about freedom and democracy.

This society was tired about the military, para-military and the guerrilleros equally. We were tired about violence.

Well, the leaders of Montoneros and ERP were in Jail for many years. Complain to Menem about their freedom.

Regards

 

[El chabon]

Should Cristina also face a firing squad for Juan Castro?

Seems to me it's only fair

 

[Matt84]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_convention

There is the answer. There is no military prosecuted by killing during combat. However, this is not what happend here. They raped, mutilated, torture and killed prisioners. And they hided the corps because they knew it was a crime. And a small percentaje of who they killed were guerrilleros, most of the victims were simple peronistas or union leaders. Some other were victims of simple robbery.

Regards

And surely a small percentage of Germans were Nazis but not all, certainly not the young children, and an even smaller percentage of raped, mutilated, tortured and pillaged Italians were actual America-hating Fascists.
But Patton, Montgomery and the Russian butchers were considered heroes, not tried in The Hague.

Does victory (and thus sheer brute force) determine whether a commander is a war criminal or a war hero?

I am still awaiting your response to an honest question I've asked you. Since you seem like an intelligent professional that knows Argentina well - and whose practice I admire as I admire all defendants of immigration to the Americas) I trust you wont take a partisan stand and actually enlighten me as objectively as you can or are willing to:

Was the dirty war necessary - in your opnion?

Would you consider it less awful if the 8,000 to 30,000 to 40,000 casualties had been killed in formal combat (that is in the same way and with all or even moreof the "spill-over" but after an official document had been signed)?
Do you believe there was a possibility that either the communists or the fascist pero'ists had taken power and established a perpetual military dictatorship?
Consider the Fascist P'''ists are already back in power, can we go as far as pointing out that maybe the Dirty War was not won but came to a stand-still? Unlike Chile

I'm not defending murder for asking these questions. I'd be defending it if I didn't ask questions.

For something awful to happen all it's needed is for one good man to do nothing and all that...

Again, don't you believe what happened in Argentina was part of a Global War that every country suffered with death tolls far exceeding four zeroes?

Your Chinese clients should have some stories that would put this situation in perspective.

As for kidnapped, displaced children, why is that so particular about Argentina too? Australian children were legally kidnapped and placed in "appropriate" homes pretty much at the same time. And what do you think happened to the underaged children of those in the Eastern Block who were sent to Gulag?

What happens today to the children of some chemical-offenders who are sentenced to the Californian Gulag?

Just saying, is some soldiers should face a firing squad before dying of natural causes then those integrating the firing squad should be examined too

 

[Fabe]

Matt ,
We need to keep one thing in mind. What happened in argetntina , and in most of latin america , and in most of the free world in the seventies , sixties and fifties , had its origins in the philosophy , or doctine of " National Security" That policy , originated in the united states.
Our Forefathers saw it wise to patronize "strongmen". Remember , chile elected , ELECTED a socialist , or comunist. But we said , uhm , no.
Im not saying that the US is responsable for the killing , but it WAS their policy of installing , or "helping" to usher in decades of military rule ( far right in most cases) in the americas.
Who is to blame? , that is beyond my pay grade ....But it does have its origins in the United States.

 

[Fabe]

In reply to the questions you posted ( to some of them anyway )
I read " EL Dictador " that basically tries to get into the head of Videla.
The guy was Opus Dei. He also , ( and Im convinced of this ) felt he was "ordained" to do the work of the lord, in what has to do with the coup.
The guy was illustrated a an incorruptible . In some cases his own military peers point to this and called him a pelotudo. It PROBABLY explains that the policy was to "save" the children , and what better way to "save" them , than putting them with like minded-god fearing- red hating fellow militaries.
Remember , the "efective" leadership of the montoneros were allowed to be folded into the intelligence aparatus during the dirty war becasue they were catholic , unlike the marxist erp. Good sources are " argentinos Vol 2 Jorge Lanata , and that book I mentioned " El Dictador " by maria seoane and Vicente Muleiro .
There is another author described as the preeminent authority on the argentine military shenanningans , ill look it up as i dont recall his name . But he is supposed to be THE mac daddy on this issue , he is an american.

 

[cuore]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_convention

There is the answer. There is no military prosecuted by killing during combat. However, this is not what happend here. They raped, mutilated, torture and killed prisioners. And they hided the corps because they knew it was a crime. And a small percentaje of who they killed were guerrilleros, most of the victims were simple peronistas or union leaders. Some other were victims of simple robbery.

Regards

The guerrilleros also kidnapped businessmen and mutilated tortured and killed their prisoners... Col. Larrabure is a sad and horrible example of a practice held by both groups...

 

[Matt84]

In reply to the questions you posted ( to some of them anyway )
It PROBABLY explains that the policy was to "save" the children , and what better way to "save" them , than putting them with like minded-god fearing- red hating fellow militaries.

Fabe, thanks for the sources and the reply, and your appreciation of my earlier post, though it really doesn't answer or explore my basic question of Argentina's Dirty War as part of the same World Conflict of the 20th c.
You point out however to very clear points for instance

1) American involvement. Of course, it was America's sphere of influence, just as the British were involved in repressing Communism in Malaysia.

2) The military dictators were Catholic Republicans. But what was the alternative? Communism or Per'nism?

Communists would have instituted Social Democracy that would have slowly led to an outright police state, like Tito's Yugoslavia with luck, or Romania with less luck.

Unrestrained Per'nists would have sped up the process Argentina is living now by 30 or 40 years leading to some sort of left or right fascism or a Social Democracy with only one party...

The "Catholic Republicans" and War Criminals of the coup at least wanted to restore democratic elections (with Per'nism forbidden just as the Nazi party was forbidden in Germany after the war) and let the UCR "radicals" (social-democrats) win but share power - as it had happened before.

No right-leaning party was ever formed, the right always acted within the military, and the military was/is? a German, not Anglo sympathizer. No wonder some consider the Falklands aggression the last battle between Germany (or Germans) and Britain. So as much American help as they got, obviously America didn't control or could be held responsible for Argentina's actions.

I guess in Chile I could give the military torturers more of a benefit of a doubt, here I just see all three parties, the Christo-Fascists, the Social-Fascists (Per'n), and the Communists all quiet evil and only slightly in that descending order.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

Does victory (and thus sheer brute force) determine whether a commander is a war criminal or a war hero?

I am still awaiting your response to an honest question I've asked you. Since you seem like an intelligent professional that knows Argentina well - and whose practice I admire as I admire all defendants of immigration to the Americas) I trust you wont take a partisan stand and actually enlighten me as objectively as you can or are willing to:

You are missing the point. The genocidals always complained that they were prosecuted even they won the "war".

The second point were you are missing the point is that just a few guerrilleros survived and those who survived were prosecuted and sentenced to life time in jail but former President Menem perdon them and the genocidals.

However, any self perdon or amnesty to genocidals is invalid according to the Interamerican Court if Human Rights in the precedent "Barrios altos".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrios_Altos_massacre

Menem perdon them after the military made some rebelios extorting the government with brutal force

"One of the most criticized measures of Menem s administration was the pardon he granted on December 29, 1990, to Jorge Videla, Emilio Massera, Leopoldo Galtieri and other leaders of the 1976–83 dictatorship convicted in the 1985 Trial of the Juntas, and some guerrilla leaders as well, on the grounds of "national reconciliation". This action sparked a protest of nearly 50,000 people in Buenos Aires. Former President Raúl Alfonsín called it "the saddest day in Argentine history."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Menem

And before that the military were doing terrorist action during democracy to stop the trials. They were putting bombs at primary schools, iunion s and human rights leaders s houses.

They did that during Alfonsin s government and the leading case at Supreme Court is named "granada":
http://www.todoiure.com.ar/libreria/jurisp.asp?x=292

And please, do not try to confuse foreigners because I didn t read it at Wikipedia, I was at primary school on those days and the calls about bombs happened once a week.

[/quote]Was the dirty war necessary - in your opnion? [/quote]

There was no war, iy was a genocidal.

Would you consider it less awful if the 8,000 to 30,000 to 40,000 casualties had been killed in formal combat

Yes. In that case, it would be legal.

Do you believe there was a possibility that either the communists or the fascist pero'ists had taken power and established a perpetual military dictatorship?

Mmmm, you don t understand politics. Left and right peronist are fascists.

The genocidals was against peronist and it was made by anti-peronist. Since Peron was overtrown after he won the elections by about 60 per cent of the votes, there was a huge conflict in this country because there were dictators, the Unions overtrown them, then there were elections with the peronist party proscribed, and so on. I remember you that anti-peronist bombed Plaza de Mayo when it was full of people.

"The plaza, in an attempt to overthrow President Perón, was bombed during one of the populist leader's many rallies there on 16 June 1955, killing 364"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plaza_de_Mayo#1940s_-_1960s

Consider the Fascist P'''ists are already back in power, can we go as far as pointing out that maybe the Dirty War was not won but came to a stand-still? Unlike Chile

I'm not defending murder for asking these questions. I'd be defending it if I didn't ask questions.

For something awful to happen all it's needed is for one good man to do nothing and all that...

This is a facist country, left, center and right are facist, that s is Peronism.

Again, don't you believe what happened in Argentina was part of a Global War that every country suffered with death tolls far exceeding four zeroes?

Your Chinese clients should have some stories that would put this situation in perspective.

Who cares? we sentences the winners. We might be arrogants but we are the only people in this worls who did that. It is all about that, we don t want to eat that shit. this is a country of immigrant who escaped from Europe expecting something better, we made it happened.

As for kidnapped, displaced children, why is that so particular about Argentina too? Australian children were legally kidnapped and placed in "appropriate" homes pretty much at the same time. And what do you think happened to the underaged children of those in the Eastern Block who were sent to Gulag?

Sorry, we might be a county in South America but seem that we are too civilized to stand that.

Just saying, is some soldiers should face a firing squad before dying of natural causes then those integrating the firing squad should be examined too

Sorry, the few times there were firing squads in this country, thery were illegals. Even death penalty existed during the XVII century, judges were reluctant to used it even the king of Spain complained a lot about that.

There is only jail for criminals and only after a trial.The US cannot say the same since Guantanamo.
And even a life time sentence has a time limit, it is not for ever.

I know, we are arrogants, perhaps we are just the gransons of peasants who took seriously the chance to emigrate to a better land and that s why we have zero tolerance to many things that might be standard in Europe.

Have you ever read the Preamble of the Constitution of this country?

"We, the representatives of the people of the Argentine Nation, gathered in General Constituent Assembly by the will and election of the Provinces which compose it, in fulfillment of pre-existing pacts, in order to form a national union, guarantee justice, secure domestic peace, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves, to our posterity, and to all men of the world who wish to dwell on argentine soil: invoking the protection of God, source of all reason and justice: do ordain, decree, and establish this Constitution for the Argentine Nation."

We just try to make it a reality, and those genocidals are in jail because some house whife decided in 1979 that it was not ok that the government kiddnaped, torture, raped, and killed their children and that they sell their grand children.

So, with all my respect, who you are to critize the work of those mothers who made it happend even many of them were killer because of that.

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estela_Barnes_de_Carlotto

Do you understand that simple house wifes sent those genocidals to jail???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Regards