The Next 4 Years If Scioli Wins?

[Gringoboy]

In fact, the electorade has a lot of good sense. We were importing oil, now we are producing it, we have new trains, the reserves didn't crash, not paying to the vulpures was the right desicion, there was no default, people has jobs, or social plans. This administration sent to hell the IMF and we stop beibg Greece.
WTF are you talking about?

If you can't see what I and others see, then I'm banging my head against a brick wall.

 

[Matiasba]

Jeb = Máximo

Please, stop comparing peronismo with republicans cause is exactly the opposite. The republicans, as far as I know, are the right in the US. Conservative, for free market, against taxes, against things like gay marriage, or other progressive measures, etc. Conservative, theres something to conserve (social order with its powers, etc)

Peronism in Argentina are pro-working class governments. There is right wing peronism as Menem, but that was really not peronism. In fact, they violated the three slogans the peronism historically had: politic sovereignty, economic independence, and social justice. The real peronismo was in fact the historic one, not the one of the 90s, the proof is that in his campaign Menem used all his features, all its "flags", proposing populism, like "revolución productiva" and "salariazo", google it, and did the exact oposite.

So Peronism if not left, can be catalogued as centre left, as working class governments, as keynesianism, as nac & pop, etc. The historical enemy of peronism is the oligarchy, (you can study this, again, google is your friend) people, that particular political subject that in the US is very well represented by republicans.

 

[ElQueso]

Gringoboy, I've given up discussing politics with anyone here who thinks the current regime is worth anything. While they're saying how Germany can't remember its past and Argentina does, they leave off the little bit of fact that Germany has managed not to have another Hitler, slaughter of Jews and so on and actually has become quite prosperous, coherent and law-abiding after the way the terms of the Treaty of Versailles left them in 1919 and the way their country was ruined by their leaders in WWII. Meanwhile, Argentina since the same period of time has had various dictators (well, at least they didn't kill millions of Jews), a loosening of the adherence, by their leaders, to their constitution and laws to the point where one president with a majority of congressmen in her pocket can do an awful lot of things by decree, and has an economy that is known the world over for its ups and downs. Meanwhile there's only 5% or less poor (sorry, starving...oops malnourished) people, everyone has great jobs that they love, and everyone's happy (and if you believe that, I have some good farm land smack in the middle of the Everglades, to sell to you!).

Of course, here we have Bajo Cero who makes trips to the US and Europe (and I don't know where else) and Wild Horses who has made many trips to Germany, arguing that things are just fine here. I have no problem that they are in a good economic position, but I know so many Argentines who don't agree with their, or their leader's, prognosis of the state of Argentina that I have to wonder why they don't see things we see. Could it be that they are the elite of the country and aren't stuck in the mire that so many others are?

There's nothing you can say. You simply have to accept that you are completely wrong, and Cristina and her henchmen (including probably whoever succeeds her into the office of the presidency) is completely right, or where they are not right, it is simply not their fault - what do you want anyway, perfection?

 

[ajoknoblauch]

Please, stop comparing peronismo with republicans cause is exactly the opposite. The republicans, as far as I know, are the right in the US. Conservative, for free market, against taxes, against things like gay marriage, or other progressive measures, etc. Conservative, theres something to conserve (social order with its powers, etc)

Peronism in Argentina are pro-working class governments. There is right wing peronism as Menem, but that was really not peronism. In fact, they violated the three slogans the peronism historically had: politic sovereignty, economic independence, and social justice. The real peronismo was in fact the historic one, not the one of the 90s, the proof is that in his campaign Menem used all his features, all its "flags", proposing populism, like "revolución productiva" and "salariazo", google it, and did the exact oposite.

So Peronism if not left, can be catalogued as centre left, as working class governments, as keynesianism, as nac & pop, etc. The historical enemy of peronism is the oligarchy, (you can study this, again, google is your friend) people, that particular political subject that in the US is very well represented by republicans.

They are both symptomized by cheap conservative populism. Peronism, though, is not so overtly racist.

 

[JoeGillis]

Gringoboy, I've given up discussing politics with anyone here who thinks the current regime is worth anything. While they're saying how Germany can't remember its past and Argentina does, they leave off the little bit of fact that Germany has managed not to have another Hitler, slaughter of Jews and so on and actually has become quite prosperous, coherent and law-abiding after the way the terms of the Treaty of Versailles left them in 1919 and the way their country was ruined by their leaders in WWII. Meanwhile, Argentina since the same period of time has had various dictators (well, at least they didn't kill millions of Jews), a loosening of the adherence, by their leaders, to their constitution and laws to the point where one president with a majority of congressmen in her pocket can do an awful lot of things by decree, and has an economy that is known the world over for its ups and downs. Meanwhile there's only 5% or less poor (sorry, starving...oops malnourished) people, everyone has great jobs that they love, and everyone's happy (and if you believe that, I have some good farm land smack in the middle of the Everglades, to sell to you!).

Of course, here we have Bajo Cero who makes trips to the US and Europe (and I don't know where else) and Wild Horses who has made many trips to Germany, arguing that things are just fine here. I have no problem that they are in a good economic position, but I know so many Argentines who don't agree with their, or their leader's, prognosis of the state of Argentina that I have to wonder why they don't see things we see. Could it be that they are the elite of the country and aren't stuck in the mire that so many others are?

There's nothing you can say. You simply have to accept that you are completely wrong, and Cristina and her henchmen (including probably whoever succeeds her into the office of the presidency) is completely right, or where they are not right, it is simply not their fault - what do you want anyway, perfection?

Thanks for this, ElQueso. During the past several days I've thought of commenting on this particular thread, in response to several posts that I found mind-boggling as well as downright rude, but I found myself too angry to try and compose any kind of response without sounding shrill. You've expressed my thoughts entirely. Thanks again.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

If you can't see what I and others see, then I'm banging my head against a brick wall.

And what do you see, please be explicit.
Right, this is not Sweden, we know that, so?

 

[Bajo_cero2]

Please, stop comparing peronismo with republicans cause is exactly the opposite. The republicans, as far as I know, are the right in the US. Conservative, for free market, against taxes, against things like gay marriage, or other progressive measures, etc. Conservative, theres something to conserve (social order with its powers, etc)

Peronism in Argentina are pro-working class governments. There is right wing peronism as Menem, but that was really not peronism. In fact, they violated the three slogans the peronism historically had: politic sovereignty, economic independence, and social justice. The real peronismo was in fact the historic one, not the one of the 90s, the proof is that in his campaign Menem used all his features, all its "flags", proposing populism, like "revolución productiva" and "salariazo", google it, and did the exact oposite.

So Peronism if not left, can be catalogued as centre left, as working class governments, as keynesianism, as nac & pop, etc. The historical enemy of peronism is the oligarchy, (you can study this, again, google is your friend) people, that particular political subject that in the US is very well represented by republicans.

Yes and not. Peronismo is fascism but with freedom.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

They are both symptomized by cheap conservative populism.

I know this might look like weird, but I agree with Ajo.
The Republicans are right wing populism. Cheap electronics, clothes and food is a political desicion, not a consequense of free market because, at the same time, education, housing and health care are ludicrously expensive. Peronism has the inverse logic, free education, healht and free or cheap housing and expensive electronics, cars, clothes, and food become expensive since biodoesel.

 

[mc kenna]

Yes and not. Peronismo is fascism but with freedom.

All the freedon to be fascist, other than that you are the enemy

 

[ajoknoblauch]

I know this might look like weird, but I agree with Ajo.
The Republicans are right wing populism. Cheap electronics, clothes and food is a political desicion, not a consequense of free market because, at the same time, education, housing and health care are ludicrously expensive. Peronism has the inverse logic, free education, healht and free or cheap housing and expensive electronics, cars, clothes, and food become expensive since biodoesel.

In some parts of the US, housing is cheap. Health care is getting a bit cheaper thanks to the Affordable Care Act (which could have been better, admittedly). Higher education is getting more expensive; primary and secondary education varies geographically, depending on the local tax base but, in general, poorer people get inferior education.