There we go again

[mc kenna]

Oh no nono no no no..... Mr. Venazunilla and his likes want your developed land you know the land you busted your backside on for 4 generations that is now producing and making money. That's the land they want to redistribute. Not any land they would have to work to make it produce somthing even if that land is free.

You see we are the reason he and his pals have not succeeded in life. So the easy path is to steal what others have built. Never build success yourself steal the success of others and call it justice in the name of redistribution. I am translating for Mr.. Venezunilla.

Lol pretty clear , i'll go ahead and apologize right of way and have them come to take over my land........

 

[Pensador]

My socialist story, this what I use on them when I encounter them out and about or social gatherings. I have found this delivered with an authoritative tone can stir them up a bit. Shared this at an Asado with 6 socialists once and several other locals backed me up. All 6 of them got up left.

The scenario they do not seem to understand


You Sr. Socialist Populismo and I both get 20 hectors of land at the age of 18.

You make an adobe hut get on social programs, manage to get a TV and start watching soccer matches and eating empanadas on weekends.

Meanwhile, I work a job save some money and start building my own house on the weekends and in the evenings. After 5 years I have a nice place and have also excelled in my work. I then start building apartments on my land and in 15 years I have my house and 6 apartments on my 20 hectors of land.

All this time you’re not paying much attention, watching soccer and listening to socialist populist propaganda in your adobe hut.

Over the next 5 years, I build 2 more apartments and sell them and use the money to remodel my house into a magnificent place and buy a camp on the lake. I also buy a primo truck and boat.

20 years have gone by and you walk out of your adobe hut, look at my mansion, truck, boat and apartment’s and the propaganda manifests in your brain and you think……… That is not fair!

I should have that too. The people deserve to have everything he (He being me) has. We should take that away from him and his family and redistribute it to everyone who does not have that.

What have I done Mr. Socialist that earned me the right to have my land and things taken away? I worked hard for my things and did everything I could to develop my life and provide for my family.

Now you believe it is only fair to take these things away from me and my family and redistribute them to people that have not made that same effort or spent the time and energy to accomplish what I have.

But of course, even this story will not change or affect the way this populist socialist propaganda has affected your thinking because entitlement has your mentality and it is a stronger drug than opium.

I rest my case.

 

[cinereus]

Christ I never thought I'd see so many extremist apologists for greedy land baron parasites in one place. Is this really typical for the expat scene here?!

 

[on the brink]

Christ I never thought I'd see so many extremist apologists for greedy land baron parasites in one place. Is this really typical for the expat scene here?!

Hello, Cinereus... Are you Ventanilla's identical twin, by any chance? "Greedy land baron parasites" sounds like something straight out of his Bible.

 

[cinereus]

Just someone with a strong sense of justice. Or maybe you can explain why concentrating wealth and means of production in the hands of those who have done nothing in particular to deserve it is morally justifiable

 

[mc kenna]

And those with too much money , must morally justify it to cinerus or else

 

[jlsronce]

My socialist story, this what I use on them when I encounter them out and about or social gatherings. I have found this delivered with an authoritative tone can stir them up a bit. Shared this at an Asado with 6 socialists once and several other locals backed me up. All 6 of them got up left.

The scenario they do not seem to understand


You Sr. Socialist Populismo and I both get 20 hectors of land at the age of 18.

You make an adobe hut get on social programs, manage to get a TV and start watching soccer matches and eating empanadas on weekends.

Meanwhile, I work a job save some money and start building my own house on the weekends and in the evenings. After 5 years I have a nice place and have also excelled in my work. I then start building apartments on my land and in 15 years I have my house and 6 apartments on my 20 hectors of land.

All this time you’re not paying much attention, watching soccer and listening to socialist populist propaganda in your adobe hut.

Over the next 5 years, I build 2 more apartments and sell them and use the money to remodel my house into a magnificent place and buy a camp on the lake. I also buy a primo truck and boat.

20 years have gone by and you walk out of your adobe hut, look at my mansion, truck, boat and apartment’s and the propaganda manifests in your brain and you think……… That is not fair!

I should have that too. The people deserve to have everything he (He being me) has. We should take that away from him and his family and redistribute it to everyone who does not have that.

What have I done Mr. Socialist that earned me the right to have my land and things taken away? I worked hard for my things and did everything I could to develop my life and provide for my family.

Now you believe it is only fair to take these things away from me and my family and redistribute them to people that have not made that same effort or spent the time and energy to accomplish what I have.

But of course, even this story will not change or affect the way this populist socialist propaganda has affected your thinking because entitlement has your mentality and it is a stronger drug than opium.

I rest my case.

I understand your point to this but unfortunately the world is not so black and white. I have traveled the world, done business in other countries, and worked as a diplomat so I have a unique insight to how things work that most normal people don't. In the real world money becomes leverage that rich people can leverage over poor people to make them selves even weathier while keeping the poor relegated to their cast; especially in countries prone to corruption. The rich can legally and illegally lobby politicians, or prosecutors, or judges with their wealth in order to turn the system unfairly in the favor of those who have money. This is not theory. It is fact and happens all the time.

Now to support your ideas... It is not fair to just automatically assume that because somebody has money they are a "Greedy Land Baron Parasite." The onus is on the accuser to prove that the accused land owners have been using their money and power unfairly to gain advantage. Then it is the law makers responsibility to specifically target those people for the things they have been doing. That doesn't happen. The politicians stoke the anger of the lower class people pointing wide sweeping fingers at the rich in order to gain political momentum. Once in power the populist socialists don't make specific laws that target unfair acts by the rich because that doesn't make them any money. They just tax the rich outrageously. The issue with that is the rich either have the means and the knowhow to get around paying those taxes or they are rich enough to survive them. The people who don't survive are the hard working upper middle class people who were working their asses off to climb the ladder. They go under, and instead of being an asset that generates revenue for the government they now become a liability that requires government assistance. In the mean time what does the government do with that tax money? They make themselves rich by awarding their cronies government contract deals and getting hidden bonuses and kick-backs while also paying government subsidies to the ever growing lower class in order to make them dependent so that they can stay in power. This is also not theory. It is fact and it happens all the time. I mean it is pretty much the norm in Argentina. When the ship sinks they take their loot and bail out to the USA or Europe while those who cant afford to leave sink with it.

My point to this ramble is that we need to try to understand each other and the perspective we have through dialogue and try to find common ground. Us vs Them never works out for the good of the country and the only people who win are the politicians. The politicians want the people to hate each other so they are too busy to band together and focus their energy on the corrupt politicians. If these people want to expropriate assets they should start with them.

 

[lunar]

Just someone with a strong sense of justice. Or maybe you can explain why concentrating wealth and means of production in the hands of those who have done nothing in particular to deserve it is morally justifiable

You, with strong sense of justice.

Instead of looking how to send your "high four figures" amount of dollars to Europe, why don't you just give this money to the poor?

Or your sense of social justice just applies to somebody else's money/land/whatever?

 

[Joglide]

I understand your point to this but unfortunately the world is not so black and white. I have traveled the world, done business in other countries, and worked as a diplomat so I have a unique insight to how things work that most normal people don't. In the real world money becomes leverage that rich people can leverage over poor people to make them selves even weathier while keeping the poor relegated to their cast; especially in countries prone to corruption. The rich can legally and illegally lobby politicians, or prosecutors, or judges with their wealth in order to turn the system unfairly in the favor of those who have money. This is not theory. It is fact and happens all the time.

Now to support your ideas... It is not fair to just automatically assume that because somebody has money they are a "Greedy Land Baron Parasite." The onus is on the accuser to prove that the accused land owners have been using their money and power unfairly to gain advantage. Then it is the law makers responsibility to specifically target those people for the things they have been doing. That doesn't happen. The politicians stoke the anger of the lower class people pointing wide sweeping fingers at the rich in order to gain political momentum. Once in power the populist socialists don't make specific laws that target unfair acts by the rich because that doesn't make them any money. They just tax the rich outrageously. The issue with that is the rich either have the means and the knowhow to get around paying those taxes or they are rich enough to survive them. The people who don't survive are the hard working upper middle class people who were working their asses off to climb the ladder. They go under, and instead of being an asset that generates revenue for the government they now become a liability that requires government assistance. In the mean time what does the government do with that tax money? They make themselves rich by awarding their cronies government contract deals and getting hidden bonuses and kick-backs while also paying government subsidies to the ever growing lower class in order to make them dependent so that they can stay in power. This is also not theory. It is fact and it happens all the time. I mean it is pretty much the norm in Argentina. When the ship sinks they take their loot and bail out to the USA or Europe while those who cant afford to leave sink with it.

My point to this ramble is that we need to try to understand each other and the perspective we have through dialogue and try to find common ground. Us vs Them never works out for the good of the country and the only people who win are the politicians. The politicians want the people to hate each other so they are too busy to band together and focus their energy on the corrupt politicians. If these people want to expropriate assets they should start with them.

This is an excellent contribution in my view: just shouting at each other across ideological barricades and each claiming to be utterly the only sane way to address the world doesn't usually work, then people resort to force. The only thing I can add to what you say is that a historical perspective suggests that there is no one absolutely correct or valid approach to (say) land ownership. Distribution of land is a political as well as an economic option. The conservatives say "anyone who has enormous wealth has got it because they and their forebears have worked so very hard so very honestly while the poor sat on their asses". In the same breath everyone here (more or less) says corruption and bad behaviour is rampant across Latin America and people get rich by behaving dishonestly. Historically in Europe land was divided by an aristocracy and crown accountable to no one for centuries and only where Revolution took place (eg France) has major redistribution occurred. Research shows the USA and (say) Argentina followed different land distribution since 1750 largely because but not solely because one was a fledging democracy of property owners and the other a dependency of the European Crowns. At different points since 1810 there have been opportunities to pass redistribution laws or ensure native peoples etc have some rights but very few of these were passed unless you have something like Mexican peasant uprisings. Large estates can be very profitable and very efficient as can some peasant land economies as in France. But as in small black farms in former USA southern states after 1850, there are substantial practical and cultural barriers to radical change even when big plantations using slave labour are broken up. There are simply enormous wealth inequalities in Argentina that defy any reasonable explanation/rationale and inhibit middle class and poorer individuals from getting up the social ladder (eg buying a substantial house for their family if they are starting from scratch). USA offered frontier homesteaders land to get prairies opened up and avoid massive latifundias. Few Latin Am countries have done the same and the ecological consequences (not to mention social costs) of free-for-all without an eye to responsible distribution and land use is becoming very evident.

 

[Pensador]

I understand your point to this but unfortunately the world is not so black and white. I have traveled the world, done business in other countries, and worked as a diplomat so I have a unique insight to how things work that most normal people don't. In the real world money becomes leverage that rich people can leverage over poor people to make them selves even weathier while keeping the poor relegated to their cast; especially in countries prone to corruption. The rich can legally and illegally lobby politicians, or prosecutors, or judges with their wealth in order to turn the system unfairly in the favor of those who have money. This is not theory. It is fact and happens all the time.

Now to support your ideas... It is not fair to just automatically assume that because somebody has money they are a "Greedy Land Baron Parasite." The onus is on the accuser to prove that the accused land owners have been using their money and power unfairly to gain advantage. Then it is the law makers responsibility to specifically target those people for the things they have been doing. That doesn't happen. The politicians stoke the anger of the lower class people pointing wide sweeping fingers at the rich in order to gain political momentum. Once in power the populist socialists don't make specific laws that target unfair acts by the rich because that doesn't make them any money. They just tax the rich outrageously. The issue with that is the rich either have the means and the knowhow to get around paying those taxes or they are rich enough to survive them. The people who don't survive are the hard working upper middle class people who were working their asses off to climb the ladder. They go under, and instead of being an asset that generates revenue for the government they now become a liability that requires government assistance. In the mean time what does the government do with that tax money? They make themselves rich by awarding their cronies government contract deals and getting hidden bonuses and kick-backs while also paying government subsidies to the ever growing lower class in order to make them dependent so that they can stay in power. This is also not theory. It is fact and it happens all the time. I mean it is pretty much the norm in Argentina. When the ship sinks they take their loot and bail out to the USA or Europe while those who cant afford to leave sink with it.

My point to this ramble is that we need to try to understand each other and the perspective we have through dialogue and try to find common ground. Us vs Them never works out for the good of the country and the only people who win are the politicians. The politicians want the people to hate each other so they are too busy to band together and focus their energy on the corrupt politicians. If these people want to expropriate assets they should start with them.

These are good points and true the powers that be and I am well aware of these things. For many of us it is painfully clear how political manipulation works and how and why they (the brainwashed) buy into it.

Once the mind is gone in populism and propaganda after a political ideology that is usually just a front behind which the corruption operates. Even as you described these things. Bring that mind back to common ground…. How?

You can try and explain these things to the ones in the grip of the propaganda of populism from now till Neverland and they are not going to come out of it. Making the possibility of common ground all but impossible. So for me anyway, there is black and white here and not you, I or anyone else is going to change that. A mind given to populism is not going to entertain anything relating to a common ground. That I suppose is part of the grand scheme of populism.