To the critics with no opinion of their own

[jaredwb]

I think I've already posted my opinions about the current government in this thread, and I'm not going to repeat that. I sincerely believe that Peronistas are the worst thing that happened to Argentina. They are a bunch of corrupt thieves. They've always been like that. A lot of people don't care about it as long as they do fine.

On the other hand, I keep reading this kind of messages from you, and keep wondering, why are you still related in any way to Argentina. Is it the Choripanes? A S.O that lives here? I'm genuinely interested.

And another thing that surprises me, is that a lot of people keep expecting that things will work the same way they work in the US, when its clear that its a different country, with different expectations, and a different way of doing things (note that I'm not saying better way). Just the difference between the lawsuit easy, huge payoffs, everyone for themselves model of the US will color the society and the way it works, the same way that strong unions, corrupt government and mafia has affected in many ways how Argentina works.

Unfortunately, I've asked myself that same question a lot more this last year

Buenos Aires has lost a lot of it's "factors" that attracted me in the first place. That being said, when I'm not on the forum I actually love my time here. I have a great place, live in a great neighborhood, know all the shop owners by name, love the food, the energy, and aside from all the Peronist psychos, I really like the people here. The choripanes certainly help

I don't expect things here to work like the U.S., but I think that falls squarely on the people that (at least in my eyes) have basically given up.

Good example...

Had a HUGE billing and iPhone problem with Claro recently. Of course, went through all the steps, called "customer care" 10 times, went to the local in Alto Palermo 10 times (no kidding we kept records)...and basically after 3 months of fighting nothing happened or changed (apart from that the service was HORRENDOUS). My wife (from Argentina) kept telling me, nothing will change, that's who we are and they will just continue to bullshit us until we give up.

Argentina way: give up and give in.

Now, the U.S. way...

After all the shit we went through I was furious. Anyone that has lived or even travelled in the U.S. knows that Customer Service in most places is terrific. You NEVER hear "NO" or "take us to court" (no shit, an agent actually told me this on the phone).

So, I found the Director of Customer Care online. Emailed him 3 times. no reply. Called him...no reply. Next, I send inmails (linkedin) to EVERY Claro employee that I could find briefly explaining the problem and naming the Director of "Service". At the same time, I contacted the parent company of Claro (in Mexico) and spoke with the Director of Operations who sent me the direct cell phone and email of the CEO of Claro Argentina. Before I even had a chance to call, the CEO called me directly to apologize for the problem and connected me with the Support Lead for Argentina who resolved the problem in about 1 week. Of course, during that week I heard from the Director, and about 8 employees offering assistance.

My point...IF the people would actually take a stand instead of just saying, "oh well, that's how things work"...you could make a positive change.

 

[jaredwb]

I have no facts, just like you don´t have either. Unless you have special powers and can predict exactly what the futur will bring... were you able to predict 9/11? And this huge collapse in the US economy? Were you able to predict it when Kennedy was shot? All your thoughts are besed in past facts, some drugs make you believe you can guess the future Any history book will prove that no empire or country grow forever, always and never are big absolutes

Um, I think history shows all the facts needed...Not hard to make a case that even at it's worst, the U.S. is far far far far above Argentina (from a strictly economic standpoint).

As for the economic collapse, actually there were a LOT of economists that predicted it, many called for the Government to stop forcing banks to make bad loans or be penalized (more of the same social engineering that is BAD in any country).

However, not sure where you are going with the future aspect...I didn't say I could predict the future but HISTORY teaches and if you know your history and LEARN from it...you can make educated "predictions" of things that could come to pass. So yes, most of my thoughts are based on past facts BECAUSE they still hold true. And while many "empires" in the past have fallen, the U.S. has gone through horrible times before and has ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS come back stronger...so I can and will predict with 100% certainly that they will do so again.

the smoking offer still stands

 

[Guillo]

My point...IF the people would actually take a stand instead of just saying, "oh well, that's how things work"...you could make a positive change.

Well, after that you certainly seem more human

The problem with taking a stand is the effort it takes. You cant live doing that all the time, as it ends up absorbing all of your free time, work time, attention, creativity, and effort. At some point, your have to make a choice, whether to live bitterly fighting with everyone (believe me, I've tried that) or just to do the best you can without it taking it too far and plain try to surf the waves coming at you.

 

[nikad]

Um, I think history shows all the facts needed...Not hard to make a case that even at it's worst, the U.S. is far far far far above Argentina.

As for the economic collapse, actually there were a LOT of economists that predicted it, many called for the Government to stop forcing banks to make bad loans or be penalized (more of the same social engineering that is BAD in any country).

However, not sure where you are going with the future aspect...I didn't say I could predict the future but HISTORY teaches and if you know your history and LEARN from it...you can make educated "predictions" of things that could come to pass. So yes, most of my thoughts are based on past facts BECAUSE they still hold true. And while many "empires" in the past have fallen, the U.S. has gone through horrible times before and has ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS come back stronger...so I can and will predict with 100% certainly that they will do so again.

the smoking offer still stands

Well, you wrote using a future tense, so that implies you are certain of what the future is going to bring. You can make educated guesses, but not predict the future. The past is gone, the present is now and the future is yet to come...think of the Roman Empire. I do not smoke, but enjoy yourself!

 

[John.St]

... I sincerely believe that Peronistas are the worst thing that happened to Argentina. They are a bunch of corrupt thieves. They've always been like that. ...

Perhaps you can provide me with something I have been searching for at long time:

A list of Argentino presidents

1. who have not been lining their own pockets
2. who have not been nepotists
3. who have not been corrupt
4. who have not abused their power

As far as I can judge, the Kirschners have been as bad as all the others in many respects but while they have been stealing with both hands and feet (exactly like their predecessors) they have also improved the Argentino national economy, although some of their means have been unpleasant - especially for the middle class - and thus dangerous for the country's future (AFAIK a solid middle class is the glue that links top and bottom and provides stability).

 

[Guillo]

Perhaps you can provide me with something I have been searching for at long time:

A list of Argentino presidents

1. who have not been lining their own pockets
2. who have not been nepotists
3. who have not been corrupt
4. who have not abused their power

As far as I can judge, the Kirschners have been as bad as all the others in many respects but while they have been stealing with both hands and feet (exactly like their predecessors) they have also improved the Argentino national economy, although some of their means have been unpleasant - especially for the middle class - and thus dangerous for the country's future (AFAIK a solid middle class is the glue that links top and bottom and provides stability).

In the last years, both Radicales (De la Rua and Alfonsín) didn't fit in that model. The deal is that, peronistas are quite well known for making the country impossible to manage unless they are in control, so all governments that are not their own will usually end bad (I'm talking after the military government, not really into history to talk about before that). As the unions are mostly peronistas, they will agree to not be very bothering as long as they get money or power in exchange (for an example, see how money for health is given to them to exchange for their support, and see the legal problems they are all having because of fake medicines to figure out where all the money goes. Hint: their pockets). Radicales dont deal with them like that, so they have to support strike after strike.

 

[jaredwb]

Well, after that you certainly seem more human

The problem with taking a stand is the effort it takes. You cant live doing that all the time, as it ends up absorbing all of your free time, work time, attention, creativity, and effort. At some point, your have to make a choice, whether to live bitterly fighting with everyone (believe me, I've tried that) or just to do the best you can without it taking it too far and plain try to surf the waves coming at you.

Well, I've gone through the same thing with Fibertel and HP in the past. I honestly feel that most people who are at the Lead or Management level want to do their best for their customers.

And yes, it does take time and effort and it's a stress...but it is the principle that drove me. And Claro actually made some positive changes to their website because of a few things that came up during the fiasco.

However, and here we go again, the fact that you can get away with the bare minimum (at the worker level) just causes more problems. I know for a fact that the HORRIBLE support person that told us that "if we didn't like it take us to court" is still working at Claro. The 'Manager" at the Alto Palermo store who was so rude that my wife was in tears...still working there.

If that happened in the U.S. they would have been fired on the spot...no questions (and why should there be, their ONLY job is to provide service to their customers).

Claro can't fire them without having to go through tons of legal hoops and in the end STILL have to pay outrageous monies to them for doing a shitty job.

 

[John.St]

... but HISTORY teaches

Deary me, the only thing you can learn from history is that decision makers are too ignorant about history and too stupid to learn from it.

 

[gouchobob]

This was originally posted by MARKSOC.

1- The price controls over beef allowed the local population to eat meat. I don´t know how many of those producers would have stayed producing meat without this measure or gievn the prices of soya how many would have done that anyway. The fact is that with free exports of meat, it would have been a lot more expensive earlier.

Reality, Argentina has gone from number 1 beef exporting nation to a country that must now import to meet domestic needs. Government policies over the years have severely damaged the industry.

2- The retirement accounts were not confiscated, since they are retirement accounts and not private pension funds. The money will come to you anyway when you reach the pension age, the difference is that now you are asured to get it (which was not the case with the AFJPs).

Reality, the government took control of the funds and has used them for other purposes. In exchange the savers got an IOU from the government promising to pay a pension at a future date. Of course the government here has had a lot of difficulties honoring its financial obligations in the past. Seizing the funds sent another message to investors that private property rights are not respected. Lack of private of investment is severely retarding the growth of the economy.


3- The reciprocity fee was implemented by many countries, and it is ok. In SE Asia (were I am right now) countries charge for a visa according to parameters like this, the tourist industry in Laos and Cambodia is booming. Anyway, most of the tourists in Argentina are not Americans.

Reality, simply a silly political move to show those gringos because they make Argentinians get a visa. Its intended to make the local population feel better there was never any economic analysis of the potential impact.

4- The INDEC game was an amazing way to deal with the debtors. It destroyed credibility, but saved us a lot of money on very critical years.

Reality, outside investors look at this as a technical default by Argentina, i.e. under calculating the interest due. More investors chased away, higher interest rates charged to Argentina in the future, more damage to the economy.


5- The new Media Law will open new venues for independent journalism, not less. This one is really clear, I don´t get how people can be angry for a law that limits the power of "Clarin". Or would you like to have only "Fox News" in your country?

Reality, this and actions since underline this is only petty retribution(against Clarin for withdrawing their support) and attack on a free press by the government. The government steers advertising funds (which are significant)to papers that provide positive coverage, use harassment and other tactics to undermine those who don't.

6-Import taxes: one more tool in the economist bag. Sorry that you cannot buy that I-Pad as cheap as in the States, it is a way of making money from people that can buy I-Pads, and in some cases protecting the national industry. Guess what, I prefer some shitty products than a lot of unemployment.

Reality, protects inefficient producers and results in inferior products at high prices in the local market. As the products produced are not of good quality and price the industries stagnate and their goods cannot be sold outside outside the protected borders of Argentina. Long term economic growth suffers and employment in industry is much lower as a result.

 

[jaredwb]

Deary me, the only thing you can learn from history is that decision makers are too ignorant about history and too stupid to learn from it.

Agreed!! Sad, isn't it