transering $ abroad from apt sale

[earlyretirement]

In another post someone else said they verified with an escribano that it was leagal to do an offshore transfer - though maybe they were talking about residents?
http://baexpats.org/expat-life/19878-whats-best-way-transfer-dollars-out.html

And I got my residency two months after buying my apt - and, I brought the money here in cash my self and through a few friends (in under 10,000 increments) so there will be no record of anything going through the central bank so (maybe) I'll be able to answer your other question after I sell.

Heather,

This isn't correct. After the changes in the law in October, it's NOT legal to buy an apartment paying outside of Argentina. Of course you still could attempt to and I've seen cases where both the buyer and seller agree, but it's "black".

If you're a non-resident, AFIP can and definitely will probably see how you brought in the funds to Argentina for the purchase. Remember you have to apply for a permit to sell if you're a non-resident so it's not wise to do anything in black when buying.

What you did bringing in $10,000 US each trip is legal. But you will have to show proof via your passport and make sure to keep a copy of the passport if you renew it and show the entry stamps and preferably also show the withdrawals of cash from your bank statements.

I doubt AFIP will allow you to say "friends brought in the cash for you".

Previously before October 2011 it was perfectly legal to sell a property and get paid abroad. Heck, it was even all documented on the escritura the account you wired to. But now with this change it's now illegal. Just check with AFIP or any reputable Escribano that really specializes with many transactions.

This was a HORRIBLE change for both residents and non residents alike.

 

[medhell]

I am in the middle of a sell right now. I can tell that AFIP wants to know in details how you got the money in to Argentina. If you brought cash yourself, you need to show passports or get a transcription at emigrations. The only white way in is with Banco Nacion. Another thing to think of nowdays is "ganancia". AFIP wants to see all electricity bills for the years you have been an owner. You can get a trancript at Edenor. AFIP will look at the periods when you were out of the country, if any consumation you will be charged for sublettings 20% of an estimated value. If you prefer to fight, your sell will be delayed...for a long long time....

 

[chris]

This whole thing has me confused. Are property sales nowadays in dollars or pesos? If you receive dollars what is stopping you from sending the money back to your home country via Banco Piano or another bank? I am speaking of RESIDENTS. Also if the authorities want proof of the source of the sale, does this apply to all sales - even those that occurred years before the new regulations? I don't know that every buyer in Argentina can find that kind of documentation. People save large amounts of cash in Argentina over periods of years. Maybe someone can clarify all this for me.

 

[dennisr]

The money laundering act or whatever they call it included real estate sales/.purchases. It is not only a tax thing with the AFIP. Resolution 16/2012 empowered the government to have the final approval or disapproval of any and all real estate sales. They can ask for documentation on how much TP was used and you shall be obliged to accommodate.

 

[ndcj]

The money laundering act or whatever they call it included real estate sales/.purchases. It is not only a tax thing with the AFIP. Resolution 16/2012 empowered the government to have the final approval or disapproval of any and all real estate sales. They can ask for documentation on how much TP was used and you shall be obliged to accommodate.

Did you read Resolucion 16/2012 before posting this? It's an information reporting regime (as applies in pretty much every other country for large or suspicious cash or cash-like transactions). This is a "one way" reporting mechanism, with most routine transactions reported in bulk monthly.

It's basically the same as CTR and SAR reports in the US, but more specific, because FinCEN reporting is required of every business in the US, no matter the industry.

It has nothing to do with "approval" of real estate sales, and relates mainly to the obligation to "know your customer" and the origin of the funds -- it's almost identically the same stuff you already have to provide to your escribano as part of a purchase. This resolucion just extends similar reporting requirements to real estate agents, to increase reporting of real estate transactions for circumstances where an escribano is not (at least initially) involved. In fact, if you don't use a real estate agent, this resolucion means exactly zero.

 

[jimdepalermo]

I would add that it's not illegal to carry more than U$ 10,000 when entering Argentina - or the US, for that matter - so long as you declare the money on entry.

That said, I once asked at Ezeiza how I would go about making such a declaration. The first Aduana agent sent me to another, who sent me to an office that was closed, so I still don't know the mechanism for doing so. My accountant assures me it is both possible and required when carrying large sums of money, but the mechanism for making the declaration doesn't seem to be known to many people.

Entering the US, the standard customs/agriculture form has a box for declaring cash in excess of U$ 10.000.

And of course there's the concern about pilferage on the airplane or an EZE agent who notifies a "friend" outside the secured area that you are about to exit with mucha plata.

 

[earlyretirement]

I am in the middle of a sell right now. I can tell that AFIP wants to know in details how you got the money in to Argentina. If you brought cash yourself, you need to show passports or get a transcription at emigrations. The only white way in is with Banco Nacion. Another thing to think of nowdays is "ganancia". AFIP wants to see all electricity bills for the years you have been an owner. You can get a trancript at Edenor. AFIP will look at the periods when you were out of the country, if any consumation you will be charged for sublettings 20% of an estimated value. If you prefer to fight, your sell will be delayed...for a long long time....

This is exactly true. Mostly I've seen that AFIP hasn't bothered my friends that bought before 2006. But I think things changed around 2006/2007 where they were much stricter about how funds were coming in.

Also, keep in mind that there are something like 27 AFIP offices around Buenos Aires and some of them are MUCH more difficult than others. Many of them don't even know the laws and some are very strict. And you can't just go to any AFIP office you want. It depends on which one you were assigned to based on where you got your CDI (tax ID #) or where the person that has a power of attorney is assigned to. It's all a bit complicated but just know some are easier than others.

I have a friend that went back and forth all the time to Argentina and the USA. He wired in the funds in "black" but when he went to sell the property he just said each time he brought in $10,000 US each time and there wasn't anything they could do to disprove it. But they did ask to see all the passport stamps so make sure you have that prepared if you will use that as an excuse.

AFIP is a total nightmare. Lately I had a friend that had problems getting a permit to sell. And keep in mind he was up to date on ALL his taxes. He paid his ABL on time, he paid his annual asset taxes on time and he even declared ALL his rentals and paid the income tax on it. He was using a reputable property management company in town that required to pay taxes.

This guy STILL had problems getting the permit. It turns out that two of the months that he owned the property, the utility bills showed usage even though only 1 rental week was declared which was the truth. It could just be the utility company made a mistake but rather than appeal it which would have really slowed things down...he paid the 2,500 pesos so he could close.

VERY few reputable escribanos are going to mess around with doing transactions now allowing the buyer to wire abroad, etc. It's not worth the potential hassles to them now. I know a few escribanos that did it all the time before but now they don't want to deal with them.

Also, the other big problem you have is the issue if you wire abroad is a matter of trust. Assuming you buy a property and you wire abroad to the seller's account in the USA/Europe/etc, are you going to wire the funds first? I'd NEVER wire funds before you signed the title deed because you're saying that you paid the funds in cash in Buenos Aires. And the seller wouldn't want to sign the title deed first because if you didn't pay the deed would say you already paid in cash. HUGE trust issue.

Sure, you can find a third party to "Escrow" it but it becomes much more complicated and involves huge amounts of trust. Also, when you go to sell the property, you still have to keep in mind AFIP WILL ask you how you got the funds into Argentina when you bought it.

All things to think about....

 

[Crema Americana]

AFIP will look at the periods when you were out of the country, if any consumation you will be charged for sublettings 20% of an estimated value. If you prefer to fight, your sell will be delayed...for a long long time....

What if you're living with someone else? Not exactly renting it out, since no income, but either letting someone stay there to housesit or a gf/bf that shares the place with you and likes to watch tv? Does the government need to know about your bedroom life as well?

 

[earlyretirement]

What if you're living with someone else? Not exactly renting it out, since no income, but either letting someone stay there to housesit or a gf/bf that shares the place with you and likes to watch tv? Does the government need to know about your bedroom life as well?

Just make sure it's the truth and if that is the case you probably will avoid problems. But even then there is no guarantee you won't have problems.

Last year I met an American that told AFIP that his "novia" was staying in it when he was trying to sell his apartment. He was really renting it out. He told them that his novia was using it. AFIP sent an inspector to the building to talk to the doorman. Long story short... I don't think he was ever allowed to sell.

I'm sure that many people fib to AFIP. Just make sure if you do that they won't catch you a lie because it will be a nightmare.

At the other end of the spectrum I've seen Americans that were renting out expensive homes, refused to pay the true rental taxes on the rents but just declared small amounts each month and made regular payments. It was a fraction of the true 21% tax but AFIP saw regular payments each month and granted the permit.

I think as long as your boyfriend or friend was using the property but don't underestimate AFIP these days. Before they were clueless but now they have really wised up. Looking at utility bills, demanding to see ALL phone bills and looking at phone records, gas bills, water bills, and even talking to doormen.

Keep in mind Portero jobs are VERY difficult to find and probably one of the best jobs around. Most doormen won't lie to AFIP and risk their jobs, even if you are friends with them.

Also the MOST important thing to realize is that things don't have to make sense with AFIP. In fact, most times it doesn't make any sense at all like much of what happens in Argentina. You just scratch your head and tell yourself this can't really be true or doesn't make sense....but it's how things are done. The worst thing to do is speculate that something sounds too crazy and can't be how things are done. You will kill yourself if you think like that in Argentina. Many things just don't make sense there.

 

[Heather G]

Wow, so much new stuff to think about.

Heather,

If you're a non-resident, AFIP can and definitely will probably see how you brought in the funds to Argentina for the purchase. Remember you have to apply for a permit to sell if you're a non-resident so it's not wise to do anything in black when buying.

What you did bringing in $10,000 US each trip is legal. But you will have to show proof via your passport and make sure to keep a copy of the passport if you renew it and show the entry stamps and preferably also show the withdrawals of cash from your bank statements.

I doubt AFIP will allow you to say "friends brought in the cash for you".

Does that mean that since I am a "permanent" resident then they will not ask me how I brought the funds into the country?

And if they do ask, what if I have records of bank transfers to each friend and get copies of their passports - would it be enough?

AFIP will look at the periods when you were out of the country, if any consumation you will be charged for sublettings 20% of an estimated value.

Is that 20% of the estimated value at the time of sale or at the time when you were out of the country?

Mostly I've seen that AFIP hasn't bothered my friends that bought before 2006. But I think things changed around 2006/2007 where they were much stricter about how funds were coming in.

Are you saying that they are not bothering with investigating the things that happened before the laws were changed and since I bought in 2005 I would probably not be investigated?

Also, I was under the impression that because I am a resident and because my apt will sell for way less than 600,000 I wouldn't need to get permission from AFIP at all. Even on their website it says that you don't need a COTI if the value is less than that.

If I understood it correctly here: http://www.afip.gov.ar/inmuebles/

This is the relevant text:

El “Código de oferta de transferencia de inmuebles” (COTI) deberá ser tramitado con carácter previo a la ocurrencia de alguno de los siguientes actos, el primero que suceda: negociación, oferta o transferencia de un bien inmueble o de derechos sobre bienes inmuebles a construir, cualquiera sea su forma de instrumentación, siempre que algunos de los siguientes valores resulten iguales o superiores a $ 600.000: precio consignado en cualquiera de los actos aludidos, base imponible fijada a los efectos del pago de los impuestos inmobiliarios, tributos similares o valor fiscal vigente.