Welfare In Argentina

[Jaredberryman]

the social plans do not cover what a people spend in one month. Not a chance. As someone posted before, they are like 600 pesos per kid. And they must not have a job "en blanco" to recieve the AUH or similar plans. That they are all the day doing nothing because of the plan social is a myth. The social plan is a help they have to reach the end of the month. Not a salary. Is for unemployed and for the people who work in negro.

This family has free housing and receives 3500 pesos from the government. That is more than my in-laws who are retired get (who worked their butts off for 35 years and bought their own house). I don't know what they get and why, but this is a real case, not a myth. No one gave my in-laws a laptop or a subsidy or any help at all. And now with a default looming, I'm worried they won't even get their paltry retirement. Get real.

 

[Matiasba]

Matias, you are an idealist, but I personally think many of the ideas you have are completely impractical and also damaging. The problem is not just that a few rich people hope to control everything, although that is part of the problem that too few control too much. The problems are far more complex than that. Argentina has tried demonizing oligarchs and destroying them, and that has been tried in plenty of countries too. Of course it never brings prosperity in a general sense.

And your comments about the USA reveal how little you understand our culture. In fact, they were insulting. The most powerful man in our country is BLACK. For you to imply that there is some plot by rich and powerful people in the United States to keep black people poor shows how little you understand our nation. There is no such conspiracy. There is racism everywhere and it still exists in our country (and in yours I might add). There are plenty of black people that are upper class in our country and plenty of white upper class that accept them as equals.

You can be completely unrealistic sometimes.

I didnt say to keep them poor, what i said is that a black rich person will never be seen as upper classes as the white black person, it will be seen as a negro with money. They will never be accepted, at that level, by them, as equals.

 

[Matiasba]

This family has free housing and receives 3500 pesos from the government. That is more than my in-laws who are retired get (who worked their butts off for 35 years and bought their own house). I don't know what they get and why, but this is a real case, not a myth. No one gave my in-laws a laptop or a subsidy or any help at all. And now with a default looming, I'm worried they won't even get their paltry retirement. Get real.

the problem is veery complex and the thing we are talking here is which is the role of the state. To me, its ok, that the State spends money (my money, all societies money) in the poor. Just to balance the situation, like most european countries, the part of the world with better social indexes, does.

 

[Jaredberryman]

I didnt say to keep them poor, what i said is that a black rich person will never be seen as upper classes as the white black person, it will be seen as a negro with money. They will never be accepted, at that level, by them, as equals.

What you just said is absolute nonsense. I know plenty of upper class people that accept black people as their equals. Apparently, enough rich people liked Obama to give him money for his campaign. You are telling me that rich people gave money to someone to become their leader even though they think he is not their equal? It doesn't sound very likely. Maybe you meant a certain segment of rich society or something like that? If so, that is a relatively small group. The civil rights movement happened in the sixties. Our country is different now.

I haven't heard someone say negro in years. Have you ever even lived in the United States?

 

[Matiasba]

What I am trying to say is that the upper classes, not people with money, I mean people with billion, the hard core of the US capitalism, the ultra rich, and probably lower strata than that too, will never accept a black person in their society (sorry for calling them negro, I didn t know).
Of ocurse there lots of people with money that support Obama, and black people in general, and even, as I said, black people with tons of money.
My point, generally speaking, is that the upper classes in the US, the people that goes for distinction of the common people, the economic power, probably they are all republicans, will not accept a black person as an equal, as a way to give some social (not economic, not political) clausure to a also young society as the US, where you can also go back a century and find that all these people were poor immigrants.

 

[Rich One]

this huge money invested in improoving the situation of the poor, these social plans (which money comes from not paying debt interests, from not having taken debt) will probably desappear with next government. With Macri for sure.

Maybe they will all get JOBS and hopefully social plans will disapear As a politician said We WANT jobs NOT Plans. or handouts!

 

[Rich One]

What I am trying to say is that the upper classes, not people with money, I mean people with billion, the hard core of the US capitalism, the ultra rich, and probably lower strata than that too, will never accept a black person in their society (sorry for calling them negro, I didn t know).
Of ocurse there lots of people with money that support Obama, and black people in general, and even, as I said, black people with tons of money.
My point, generally speaking, is that the upper classes in the US, the people that goes for distinction of the common people, the economic power, probably they are all republicans, will not accept a black person as an equal, as a way to give some social (not economic, not political) clausure to a also young society as the US, where you can also go back a century and find that all these people were poor immigrants.

What do you mean by Clausure? Is this another ¿ I Vos isue ?, essential part of the Argentina idiosyncrasy. Just focus on Argentina Welfare.

 

[Jaredberryman]

What I am trying to say is that the upper classes, not people with money, I mean people with billion, the hard core of the US capitalism, the ultra rich, and probably lower strata than that too, will never accept a black person in their society (sorry for calling them negro, I didn t know).
Of ocurse there lots of people with money that support Obama, and black people in general, and even, as I said, black people with tons of money.
My point, generally speaking, is that the upper classes in the US, the people that goes for distinction of the common people, the economic power, probably they are all republicans, will not accept a black person as an equal, as a way to give some social (not economic, not political) clausure to a also young society as the US, where you can also go back a century and find that all these people were poor immigrants.

That is complete nonsense. Racism still exists in every social strata in the U.S. The rest of what you are saying is mostly not true. For example, one of the front runners in the Republican primaries last presidential elections was Herman Cain, a black man. It is just as likely that rich Republicans would support a black person for their candidate as Democrats. There were some awfully ultra-rich white capitalists that supported Herman Cain (especially in the corporate realm). I'm sure it's convenient for you to think that way about the evil empire.

I'd say more racism exists among the poorer classes than upper classes. Sure, we can see a few examples of what you are talking about, like Donald Sterling. But now you are applying your own culture to another one. 98 percent of Americans identify themselves as middle class. Unlike here, people who are wealthy don't necessarily consider themselves above others just because they are wealthy. Sure, there is some of that. But it's just not like Argentina (where some of the most insufferable people I have ever met were ultra wealthy or part of that society). Many of those ultra rich capitalist became that way in their own lifetime, and it wasn't granddaddy's money.

 

[GreenLeaf]

What I am trying to say is that the upper classes, not people with money, I mean people with billion, the hard core of the US capitalism, the ultra rich, and probably lower strata than that too, will never accept a black person in their society (sorry for calling them negro, I didn t know).
Of ocurse there lots of people with money that support Obama, and black people in general, and even, as I said, black people with tons of money.
My point, generally speaking, is that the upper classes in the US, the people that goes for distinction of the common people, the economic power, probably they are all republicans, will not accept a black person as an equal, as a way to give some social (not economic, not political) clausure to a also young society as the US, where you can also go back a century and find that all these people were poor immigrants.

I'm afraid that for me I found Argentina (or at least Buenos Aires and the area around - wasn't so much the case when visiting friends in Patagonia) to be one of the most racist countries I've come across Matias. How many people in the upper to upper middle class in Argentina are indigenous? How many Peruvians / Paraguayan / Bolivian estancia owners do you know? Or how many do you see lording it around the Rural rather than mucking out the horses? What do you see when you turn on the TV to watch the news / gossip shows / Bailando por un sueno? What about that judge who was caught on CCTV a few years ago ranting and raving about having to pay a parking fine or some such with the added indignity of having to pay this to a 'black haired' girl and asking to see a 'blond'? They even built a wall in San Isidro to keep the undesirable elements from the poorer neighbourhood out didn't they? There are racists everywhere - the US, Europe, you name it - but Argentina is one of the most segregated societies I've experienced. Many Europeans might have arrived here as 'penniless immigrants', but if you walk around Recoleta or Palermo or La Rural or the Hippodromo you'll see they soon established their own upper class aristocracy and that it doesn't operate much of an open door policy to the new immigrants of today arriving from neighbouring countries. Roca is still regarded as a hero by many, despite waging a campaign of genocide against the indigenous people.

As a soft lefty I believe we have a duty to help those living in poverty whomever or wherever they are. Some will accept it with the full intention of using it to survive whilst trying to work their way out of poverty, whilst others will be happy to remain where they are and keep on taking the payments. I wish I could confidently believe that the current government of Argentina has established these policies and increases in payments purely to help those that need it, and not as a way of gaining and maintaining the support of their main electorate (I know, call me a cynic). Being middle class is more of a curse than a blessing in Argentina. The government doesn't want to help you as you are less likely to vote for them, you are earning too much to get any benefits or subsidies, but costs keep going up an up

Sorry for the rant - I mainly loved Argentina whilst living there, and would be back like a shot if it wasn't for my family here back home, but some sort of paradise of racial harmony it isn't. As a relative newcomer at the time, I had high hopes for the country when Cristina won for the first time and swallowed the rhetoric wholesale, but I'm afraid that my confidence in her words slowly eroded as I became able to see and understand more of what was happening around me, not to mention the wealth she has amassed in power whilst people are struggling to make ends meet.

 

[Crema Americana]

What I am trying to say is that the upper classes, not people with money, I mean people with billion, the hard core of the US capitalism, the ultra rich, and probably lower strata than that too, will never accept a black person in their society (sorry for calling them negro, I didn t know).
Of ocurse there lots of people with money that support Obama, and black people in general, and even, as I said, black people with tons of money.
My point, generally speaking, is that the upper classes in the US, the people that goes for distinction of the common people, the economic power, probably they are all republicans, will not accept a black person as an equal, as a way to give some social (not economic, not political) clausure to a also young society as the US, where you can also go back a century and find that all these people were poor immigrants.

I think this is more true for Argentina than the US, actually.

Maybe not for black people per se (although it applies as well) but anyone that comes from a villa will always be un negro. New money tends to get looked down by old money, universally... though at the very top, I don't think it matters much. Here, money tends to stay in families - I think there's less class movement (aside from huge sweeps in times of great economic booms or busts, but not so much at the individual level.)

And part of the issue with what you're saying... is that there's just not that many black billionaires. You think a Bill Gates or Warren Buffet would look down on a person like Oprah Winfrey because she's black? I don't think so... and she's not even in the same league.
Of the 1,645 people who made it to the 2014 FORBES list of the World’s Billionaires, 9 of them are black, up from 7 a year ago.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/mfonobongnsehe/2014/03/04/the-black-billionaires-2014/

Maybe 30 years ago that attitude would have been more prevalent (among rich country club members), but times have changed and while I'm not saying there aren't racist people, I think in general people are more open minded.