Whatever happened to the Obama sycophants?

[Denver]

-A good post and the car-analogy is very relevant.

I have lived in 5 socialist countries with the kind of health care system that Obama endorses and I fear for what will happen in the US unless this law gets overturned by the Supreme Court.

Today, my father had an MRI done at a private hospital in Denmark. Why? He is in such pain that he can't wait until the public hospital has time to see him.

Two years ago, my mother had her knee replaced. -At a private hospital in Germany. Rather than wait years for a needed operation they chose to pay out of pocket.

A few weeks ago, Norwegian newspapers wrote about a man who have waited two years to have his crushed finger operated on. He is still waiting, but private doctors now tell him the finger can probably no longer be saved.

The most important thing about government-run health care is something that you will not hear on NPR: YOU WILL NOT GET THE CARE YOU NEED, EVEN IF YOU ARE PAYING FOR IT.

Neil

 

[orwellian]

In short, state coercion will be used to further fill the coffers of these oligopolies. We usually call this "fascism."

I agree, fascism is a better label than socialism. But why the labels? Why not just call it what it is? A really bad, expensive and unconstitutional reform.
I think we can all agree that reform is necessary, just not in the form of Obama "change".

I have lived in 5 socialist countries with the kind of health care system that Obama endorses...

What Obama is proposing is very different from any health care system in Europe.

YOU WILL NOT GET THE CARE YOU NEED, EVEN IF YOU ARE PAYING FOR IT.

You get what you pay for. Public health care in Scandinavia has had a lot of budget cuts since the crisis during the 90s. Also since then a lot of the public health care has been privatized and the quality is now lower. The so called European socialist parties are a lot more right wing today than they were 40 years ago.

 

[Denver]

What Obama is proposing is very different from any health care system in Europe.

No, it is not. He wants to control it and is using the IRS as his enforcer.

You get what you pay for. Public health care in Scandinavia has had a lot of budget cuts since the crisis during the 90s. Also since then a lot of the public health care has been privatized and the quality is now lower. The so called European socialist parties are a lot more right wing today than they were 40 years ago.

The quality has ALWAYS been low. How do think private hospitals came about? Do you think they were a response to excellent, low-cost government health care? I've lived in all of Scandinavia and my closest family still lives there. Health care there is not privatized, it is government controlled, -just like Obama wants it to be in the US. There are now some private clinics and hospitals who do mainly specialty care. -Again: How you you think these institutions came to be? Before the late 80s there were NONE.

The European socialist parties are as red as ever. As red as the blood dripping from the patients waiting to receive the care they have already paid for many times over.

Neil

 

[Denver]

Update:
Based on the result from the private MRI my father had yesterday (and paid out of pocket for) he will be admitted to the (public) hospital tomorrow morning for several days of tests that will inevitably result in surgery.

I'd like to hear from all the government health care cheerleaders on this forum what they think my father's state of health would have been if he had relied on the public health system alone and waited a year to get that MRI at a public hospital.

This is not an isolated example, people. Every day in Scandinavia people die waiting to get the health care they have already paid for through through their taxes. Use Google's language tools to read some local papers. This is not something that is covered by the American media as it doesn't serve their agenda.

Neil

Some major Scandinavian newspapers: (Agendas vary from medium to very liberal)
aftenposten.no
vg.no
dagbladet.no
expressen.se
aftonbladet.se
politiken.dk
jyllandsposten.dk

 

[orwellian]

No, it is not. He wants to control it and is using the IRS as his enforcer.

So that is your only argument why it is the same?

The quality has ALWAYS been low. How do think private hospitals came about? Do you think they were a response to excellent, low-cost government health care? I've lived in all of Scandinavia and my closest family still lives there. Health care there is not privatized, it is government controlled, -just like Obama wants it to be in the US. There are now some private clinics and hospitals who do mainly specialty care. -Again: How you you think these institutions came to be? Before the late 80s there were NONE.

Well if you had lived there as long as I have you would have noticed the difference. Before the crisis in the 90s the system was a lot better. The privatized health care was introduced mainly from the conservatives who claimed it was going to become more efficient, it didn't. Obviously the conservatives want the public health care system to be bad, so they can justify us having a private one. They don't want to use tax money to pay for sick poor people. That's why these institutions came to be. And it would never have happened if the socialists didn't help let it happen.

The European socialist parties are as red as ever. As red as the blood dripping from the patients waiting to receive the care they have already paid for many times over.

This is not an isolated example, people. Every day in Scandinavia people die waiting to get the health care they have already paid for through through their taxes.

More patients die in the States not being able to pay for their surgery than in Europe waiting for theirs. Like I said earlier; you get what you pay for. And that is your argument why European socialist parties are still socialist?

 

[bigbadwolf]

I have lived in 5 socialist countries with the kind of health care system that Obama endorses and I fear for what will happen in the US unless this law gets overturned by the Supreme Court.

Which particular socialist countries have the kind of system Obama endorses? No West European country I know of offhand has the system that Obama and Congress have passed. The Scandinavian system is not what Americans will be getting.

 

[bigbadwolf]

The quality has ALWAYS been low. How do think private hospitals came about? Do you think they were a response to excellent, low-cost government health care? I've lived in all of Scandinavia and my closest family still lives there. Health care there is not privatized, it is government controlled, -just like Obama wants it to be in the US. There are now some private clinics and hospitals who do mainly specialty care. -Again: How you you think these institutions came to be? Before the late 80s there were NONE.

I have lived in Norway. My experience doesn't chime with yours. A friend of mine broke her leg while working on a friend's roof a little over a year ago. She was rushed to hospital (no paying for an ambulance), where she was seen and operated on by a specialist. She was kept in hospital for two weeks, then released to the care of her family, where she convalesced for two months. Of course the Norwegians pay taxes for this.

Private hospitals have come into being because state-run institutions are under pressure as an aging population needs more attention and also because of public sector cutbacks in several countries (including Sweden). Also, as income and wealth disparities have increased (yes, even in Europe), the lucky winners want Rolls-Royce medical treatment. Okay if you have the money but doesn't work for the majority of the population, which is struggling with stagnant, if not declining, wages, and ever more insecure employment.

The European socialist parties are as red as ever. As red as the blood dripping from the patients waiting to receive the care they have already paid for many times over.

This is the kind of statement Rush Limbaugh spouts and has little basis in reality. The left throughout Europe is on the retreat. This essay -- though a bit dated -- might give you a more informed perspective.

 

[citygirl]

Here is what I truly, truly don't get.

The US has had a government run health care program for ages. It's called Medicare. And to the best of my knowledge, it works pretty damn well. Maybe too well in fact as people are living longer and longer & it's becoming more difficult to pay for them and their treatments. But I won't say more, lest someone accuse me of wanting death panels But in all seriousness - Medicare has been around for a long time, works and I have yet to see anyone complaining about having it.

For those that have private health insurance - fantastic. You're probably not going to pay any more for your plan (AFAIK, those that might see an increase are people in their late 20s/early 30s who only had catastrophic insurance before), you get to keep the plan that you have and it has zero impact on your life.

For those that don't have health insurance - this will give you opportunity to buy it at a lower rate (hopefully) than you could have negotiated on your own.

And for those of you that don't have it and don't want it, well, than you don't have to have it but you will pay a penalty for choosing to go without.

I have my concerns about the bill and how it will work (health care "exchanges" are a great idea in theory but I'm not sure how well they will reach the population that needs them most for example).

But really and truly - what are people screaming about? The need to have health insurance? Well, I think you are nuts to not have it but again, you aren't even being forced to buy it, you just have to pay a penalty if you won't. And if you have your own health insurance, it doesn't really matter to you one way or the other.

 

[FAS]

-A good post and the car-analogy is very relevant.

The most important thing about government-run health care is something that you will not hear on NPR: YOU WILL NOT GET THE CARE YOU NEED, EVEN IF YOU ARE PAYING FOR IT.

Neil

No, it is not. He wants to control it and is using the IRS as his enforcer.

This is nothing short of ridiculous. The following may save you from future embarrassment:

First, there is no such thing as a "European health system." Every country offers a unique combination of health financing and health care delivery across the public-private spectrum. For example, France has a public insurance system and a private care delivery system. On the other hand the UK has both public insurance and public health care. Throwing all EU countries in the same socialist pot simply confirms the impression that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Second, ObamaCare is strictly a health financing reform program. There is no socialized medicine with ObamaCare - no "government run health care" as you absurdly called it - because it doesn't address medicine at all. It's an INSURANCE PROGRAM and nothing more. That's why the IRS is involved: because health reform in America is about payment for health care, not delivery of health care. Do you understand the difference between a financing system and a health delivery system? Apparently not.

Third, fascism? Do you even know what that word means? You realize of course that fascism is ultra-conservative political ideology? In other words, it's the rather ugly offspring of YOUR line of thinking.

Finally, everyone is deeply moved by your family's unfortunate health problems. But all the anecdotes in the world can't hide the fact that the US ranks very low among OECD nations for health quality. Why? Because many people can't afford to pay for medical services under the current financing system.

Perhaps you think that these people are among those not deserving the benefits of our "collective fruits," as you awkwardly put it in another thread. But I would suggest that you try to imagine the plight of working families in America that can't get MRIs at all because they don't have the resources to cover increasingly high health care costs. They aren't waiting for care like your family; they're simply suffering and dying. Health care inflation in America makes Argentinian inflation look charming by comparison.

So here's a little exercise for you, one that will benefit your mind as well as your heart: Try to extend your sympathy for others less fortunate than yourself in the same way that you want our sympathy for your family's current troubles. Maybe then you will understand why reform was necessary.

 

[SaraSara]

ObamaCare is strictly a health financing reform program. There is no socialized medicine with ObamaCare - no "government run health care" as you absurdly called it - because it doesn't address medicine at all. It's an INSURANCE PROGRAM and nothing more. That's why the IRS is involved: because health reform in America is about payment for health care, not delivery of health care..

Finally, someone who understands what health care reform really is. Thanks, FAS...