When is the Next Crisis?

Joe said:
3) A Euro panic (Greek default cascading to Spain, Italy, etc.)

I don't see Greece defaulting because the German & French banks are -way too much- involved in the Greek debt.

Many strong problems remain in the Eurozone though (just to mention the most important : Debts at ridiculous levels).

Situation in the US is also new : today's downgrade by SP, the fact that for -one of the ?- first time the US dollar is not a safe-haven. With the abyssal debt we all know, the total lack of regulation of the financial activities + the kind of Ponzi scheme in place (QE) a new "monster" is growing that should lead to hyperinflation. I really wonder what will happen when US consumers will pay a gallon of gasoline around 7 or 8 dollars. Also, what will happen if the US don't manage to attract foreign investments like before ?

Well, in both cases, our future depends on the World's number One country --> China

And in both cases (US + Europe) we can see the populist parties (Vlaamsbelang, Tea Partiers, FN in France, etc.) gaining in popularity. Historically, this has never had very happy consequences...
 
EdRooney said:
OK Bob, thanks for taking the time to reply. Before we start throwing mud about Kool Aid consumption, I'm sure we can keep this on a rational adult level.
Your first point is that inflation is higher than what I cited: and its true that this is hard to get unbiased information about because it’s such a hot-button political issue here after the 70's and 80's hyperinflation, and because the INDEC 's only purpose is to make the numbers look low so as skirt paying the IMF. The INDEC placed it at under 10%; Clarín would have us believe its 30%, but both have political ends in these figures, and neither are reliable. My point, however is that this number is a chimera anyhow because it deals with prices but not purchasing power. To repeat what I said earlier: in the 90's there was negligible book inflation, but the purchasing power of the average Argentine declined dramatically, and this is REAL inflation. It’s impossible to have real inflation and a sustained , across the board consumption boom, which is what this country has seen over the last eight years. I'm not a kirchnirista (i do like kool-aid though, especially Passion Fruit flavour!), but these numbers are extremely encouraging even for those like myself who would never vote for CFK.
Your second point, that this is based on an Asian commodity binge is important: that’s why I addressed it in my first response. To repeat, obviously Argentina needs to quit being the kitchen cabinet to the world and move on to being its garage, but in the meanwhile, up until 2002 market binges have always been wasted due to an atrocious wealth disparity. For example, under convertibility there were government policies actually favouring capital flight flowing in from the grain booms of the 70’s and 90’s. Yet what has been done with these cash influxes in recent years? They’ve used them to undo the decimation of the country’s infrastructure sold off under the neoliberal governments of the 90’s: AFJP, Aerolineas, paying off the external debt, etc. all of which has lead to the greatest wave of job creation in the country’s history.
This leads me to your third point that 40% of the population gets by on less than $8 USD/day. This is exactly my point because let’s look a closer look at those numbers (PPP). In 2002 9.9% of the population was living on less than $1 per day. That number was down to 3.4 in 2006 and dipped below 2.0 in 2009. I don’t have your $8 figures on hand to make a parallel, but looking at the country’s GINI, PPP and employment figures, it is undeniable that poverty has decreased drastically under the last two governments when it had been increasing drastically when following Washington Consensus principles.
As to your last point, you give evidence of shortages as proof of not investing in infrastructure. In my last response I discussed the relation of this to rapid growth, and would refer you to reread it, preferably with a tall glass of…TANG!
Best,

Ed
Love to have discussion with you but it's tough when one party won't even acknowledge the facts. You must be one of the few people in Argentina that doesn't acknowledge there is an inflation problem.

How does Argentina become a garage when the government discourages construction of the garage? When they freeze utility rates for 10 years what impact does that have on development or investment in energy supply? The person considering building a garage probably won't as he sees risks of arbitrary government action wiping out his investment.

Lastly its probably true that there are fewer people in poverty than in 2001 at the height of the last crisis but the numbers are clearly increasing again thanks to inflation. A better question is what impact have government policies had on growth. My answer would be not much and any improvement you can really link to external factors like commodity prices and economic activity in Brazil. The number of people living in poverty today is higher than 30 years ago as a result of bad decisions by this and past governments. The current government has done nothing to reverse Argentina's long term decline and for the most part have taken only actions which will insure that the decline continues.
 
French jurist said:
Easy solutions to complex problems ?!

I agree, although I will say that they have kept the issues in discussion however misguided their thinking is.
 
Joe said:
If we say there is 20% inflation, is that sustainable for a long period of time?

The last crisis occurred in isolation, my feeling which similar to Bobs, is that the next crisis may be a result of a economic calamity elsewhere:

1) Commodity bust because the China property bubble burst
2) A Dollar panic (today's S&P warning - a first in history I believe for the USA)
3) A Euro panic (Greek default cascading to Spain, Italy, etc.)

What would be the effect on the Argentine economy if one of these occurred.

Stagflation?
Currency crisis?

How much of the personal, government and corporate wealth in Argentina is held in dollars? in Commodities?

What strategies are wealthy Argentines using to protect themselves against the next crisis?

I think the answer is that if commodity fall significantly there simply isn't anything else thats going to bring in that kind of income to Argentina. If the fall in prices occurs then people are going to lose their jobs and spending on everything will decrease. There has been little investment in anything in the past 10 years. A lot of the industry is close to full capacity and people are reluctant to invest in additional capacity simply because they know from experience what happens next.

A lot of people with money buy real estate as a hedge against inflation in Argentina. I personally not a fan of this but many are. I believe if commodities crash the effect will be highly deflationary. You need to think what and where will benefit from lower prices.
 
gouchobob said:
I think the answer is that if commodity fall significantly there simply isn't anything else thats going to bring in that kind of income to Argentina. If the fall in prices occurs then people are going to lose their jobs and spending on everything will decrease. There has been little investment in anything in the past 10 years. A lot of the industry is close to full capacity and people are reluctant to invest in additional capacity simply because they know from experience what happens next.

A lot of people with money buy real estate as a hedge against inflation in Argentina. I personally not a fan of this but many are. I believe if commodities crash the effect will be highly deflationary. You need to think what and where will benefit from lower prices.
Not close to this scenery. Dollar down, commodities up.
Most investments in China were intended to replace local manufacturing (uSA & UE) by chinese low wages production, not only real state ones.
Investment rate in Argentina it´s little more than 20% GDP (check on Ferreres consultant, who measures it month by month. Not pro govenrment)
 
gusgutier said:
Not close to this scenery. Dollar down, commodities up.
Most investments in China were intended to replace local manufacturing (uSA & UE) by chinese low wages production, not only real state ones.
Investment rate in Argentina it´s little more than 20% GDP (check on Ferreres consultant, who measures it month by month. Not pro govenrment)

I think this is incorrect.

About 2/3 of China's economy is investment, i.e. real estate, commercial property, shopping malls, many of which are empty or underutilized. A substantial part of their growth is really just building stuff that not needed just so it can be counted as GDP growth (this is the big problem with command economies). Their economy now is in large part just a huge miss-allocation of resources that can't continue much longer. All the investment is doing is masking the fact real growth in the economy is really much lower. When this bubble bursts they will stop importing all the commodities and prices are going to fall, the dollar will probably rise, particularly against countries dependent on commodities.

The investments you are talking are largely government expenditures that are being counted as investments. Government projects by themselves don't add that much to economic growth in the long term unless other people are investing in new factories, equipment, etc. at the same time. This is the area where investments are needed that will support the countries economy and growth in the future. Investments in new plant and equipment is very low and foreign direct investment in the country is significantly below what neighboring countries are receiving. The reason for the low investment rate is concern regarding government policies plain and simple.
 
The next crisis is when you run out of money, the money you have is worthless, or the shelves are empty, even if you have money that is worth something.
 
steveinbsas said:
The next crisis is when you run out of money, the money you have is worthless, or the shelves are emty, even if you have money.

Sounds like you are describing Venezuela, Cuba, or some other socialist paradise. Unfortunately the government in Argentina seems to be trying to emulate some of the same policies that would make this unhappy result possible.
 
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