Why are Argentines so Angry?

[gouchobob]

Obviously in the 6 months you've been here you haven't had to do any tramites. Or any errands... or had to interact on a daily basis with anyone beyond your waiter or portero.

Bronca reigns here, and I don't blame them. After wasting the past few days riding around on my bike in 34 degrees weather, or going from one business to the next just to do what at home is a simple task, I'm angry too! When I'm sitting at my desk in my own apartment with my air conditioning on I forget that what lies outside the door really is a fricking broken 3rd world city. When you try to accomplish what should be easy tasks but end up being 3 hr long treks across the city on bus, train, expensive cabs, all because you cannot accomplish anything without actually going in person to have these fucking businesses here you do get angry. Really fucking angry!

Sorry I just wasted 4 days trying to find goddamn envelopes for our stupid wedding invites. I had some envelopes from the last party we did that are standard sizes, so I looked on the site where I had ordered them, they still had them, so designed the invite, went to go pick up the envelopes, oh they are out of stock.. and they are imported so won't be in for 2 months. So I spend ages looking around for some other ones, can't find them, call a shop, they have some that sound like they'll do but since of course they don't show them on their site I have to go look, so I go on monday, 20 mins on bike in 35 degrees, get there, they're closed. No signs nothing. So go home, call another shop, in San Telmo, oh they have a huge selection I should just go down, so I go the next day, 35 degrees, all the way down, walking through the streets, finally get to the shop, they're huge selection is 3 types all in red or green and the one white envelope they have is different dimension. Oh and guess what, they're all imported, won't have any for 2 months.

I've been to 5 different shops. guess what, Argentina doesn't make any fucking paper products. They import all this shit. 35 degrees, my whole weekend, half of Monday, half of Tuesday, and in the end I'm settling for a product I didn't even want, and I had to spend 4 hrs redesigning the bloody thing to another shape because they don't carry any in the dimensions of a standard fucking envelope.

Believe me, I understand the anger. This is just one bloody example. Of a simple task. That goes awry. There are a million examples.

We spent 3 hrs in the car (which still has no air conditioning because if you read another post my husband was held up at gun point and his car stolen, and they took the entire center console out, car found later) 35 degrees, going to different shops to find a bloody suit for my husband. In Canada last summer we went in and looked at Harry Rosen, we told the guy we weren't looking to buy, he spent almost an hour with us trying on hugo boss suits, 15 different ones, making sure they hung properly etc. We didn't have the money to buy so left it, here we've been into a bunch of places, no one even can be assed to show you anything, they'll give you one jacket to try on and then act as if it's a huge fucking deal if you want to look at a second example, they know nothing, if you ask about the fabrics they look annoyed because you've made them work, if you ask them about 2 button vs 3 it's obvious that you know more than the stupid guy who can't be bothered to sell you a suit etc...

Why are Argentines so angry? Get back to me in another 4 years after you've been here as long as I have, and you'll no longer be asking that question. Do a few tramites, try and open a bank account, try and start a business, try and buy something that would be so easy to get in a first world country, try and get some decent help around the house, try and get someone to fix something and do it right the first time, try and fid someone that will actually pay attention to detail and care about what they're doing. Then get back to me. Then maybe you'll understand.

Six months here, you're never going to understand yet. Why are women afer 27 angry? Because by then they've moved out of their mum's house and had to take on all the responsibilities of an adult in this city, and then it all becomes too much.

37 fucking degrees predicted for Friday, start of the weekend. Be prepared for some anger!

Good post, I think you have touched on a lot of the issues regarding actually living here. Most of the people that post here in my opinion aren't really expats as they are here just on a short-term basis. They don't have to go through the day to day hassles that develop when you actually live someplace. I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that B.A. is a great city to visit but not so hot to actually live in, well right now plenty hot. There are plenty of exceptions but I think this is true for the majority of people. I ask people who have actually been here over 2 years to respond, I doubt there will be more than a couple that do.

 

[jp]

What kind of day to day hassles though?

You can pay bills online, get almost anything delivered to your door, taxis and public transport make travel easy, plenty of places to eat and buy food (and have that delivered if you can't be arsed to go out)... Thats what daily life generally involves.

Admittedly I haven't got married, inaugurated a company or bought a house recently, but these type of things aren't typical daily activities and tend to involve a lot of paperwork and hassle the world over (except vegas I guess).

 

[marksoc]

Upper-Middle class porteños that think that they are Europeans are angry. Even the low class workers that commute every day in those infamous trains are not like that. Outside Buenos Aires people are pretty much happy (ask around El Bolson for some super-happy dudes).

 

[ElQueso]

I've lived here for more than three years now. I understand completely, 100%, what syngirl has to say about Buenos Aires. There are things that continue to frustrate me, including how many people treat each other.

I'll never forget the very first house I looked at when I was looking for a house to rent away from the city. It was not in a closed neighborhood, but not too bad - near the Sancor factory on Panamericana (other side of freeway).

It was for rent by owner. She met us at her door and let us in. As she was doing so, she swept her arm around the neighborhood and said "I know that this isn't all that great a location, but I don't really have anything to do with my neighbors anyway. I pull up in my car iin the garage, and when I walk across the doorstep, I am in my own world. I don't even know any of my neightbors."

I thought at the time, "what a strange way to greet people that are looking to rent your house!"

Later, we got to talking about the actual terms of any deal we might make. I'd already decided I wasn't going to rent the house, but since it was my first house, I wanted to see what things were going to be like, related to deals and bargaining.

After talking price and such, I asked if it was necessary to have a guarantee. I explained that I was a foreigner and didn't own property here, but I had enough money for it to not be a problem. I'll never forget her words:

"I have to protect myself. You know, we Argentines screw each other over so much that I have to make sure that I do not have a problem. I understand you are a foreigner, but what would I do if you decided not to pay me? I am going to rent an apartment in the city with my daughter so I can be closer to my job. I am going to use my house as a guarantee. If you stop paying your rent, how will I be able to pay my rent in the city? And then I will lose my house because I won't be able to afford the money it would cost me to get you out of my house for not paying."

Personally, I think that says a lot about why Argentines can be so angry. This is just one example of where a government, itself corrupt, tries to make things "fair" for those less fortunate and actually end up ruining things for many people.

Many may say that it is "fair" to not kick someone out of a house that they are not paying for, because obviously they are poor and deserve a place to live also. The problem with that is - look at how hard the government, with the protectionist laws, have actually made it to rent a house and for people to actually feel comfortable renting to other people. I could go deeper into this, but think for a moment - does this law really help anyone, or does it allow those who would take advantage of their fellow man to do just that, when they get the chance? I recently watched someone who was definitely not poor (not rich either - had no property of her own) screw over someone who put up a guarantee for this person, and the person overstayed their lease and didn't have a care in the world as the battle spun on around her to get her out.

I agree with bloody_bloo that Buenos Aires is defintiely NOT Argentina. One of my programmers is from Cordoba and recently moved back there because he and his girlfriend couldn't take Buenos Aires any more. I've been to Cordoba myself and actually rpefer it in many ways to Buenos Aires. It's cleaner, less poverty, the people are MUCH nicer.

Those are things that yes, can be different from Buenos Aires, and are things that any country in the world, no matter how nice the country, will have a city or cities where the people are not desireable or the style of living isn't as good for whatever reason. There are better places, with better people overall, in Argentina, in my opinion, than Buenos Aires.

The problem is that there is still the Argentine government sitting on top of everything in the entire country, not just Buenos Aires.

My programmer (who, btw, has become a friend since working for me) has retirement money in what used to be a private Argentine pension fund. He was really proud of that. It wasn't that long ago, he'd tell me, that one had no choice in Argentina, that all pension funds were run by the government and one could never be sure if that money was going to be there.

Well, guess what? He got really angry when la Presidente nationalized, once again, the pension funds. And why did she do that? Because the government is desperate for money and they will do whatever it is to get that money.

I guess my point is that the government does things which piss off a lot of people, and many do not believe the government has their best interests in mind. I know that all governments are pretty much that way in all of human existence, but Argentina, in this day and age, seems to have less freedoms than many other countries of similar potential.

There are those, mostly Peronists who support the Kirchners and their "brownshirt" antagonists, who believe the opposite; but for those who have their eyes open, they look at other countries, countries where their ancestors come from for example, and try to get visas/residency/citizenship in those countries with a thought of leaving. Sadly, because they love Argentina, but they also just want a chance to have a chance, and many do not feel like they have it in Argentina, whether it be in Cordoba or Buenos Aires.

 

[bloody_bloo]

LOL

you nailed it.

I came back from El Bolsón a couple weeks ago and I've decided to move there in the forthcoming future. I believe there's no possible real happy lifestyle for a family in bs as. You can only expect to get used to the things mentioned before and feel comfortable enough about them, like a zombie. Over time the city will end up eating and shitting you.

Upper-Middle class porteños that think that they are Europeans are angry. Even the low class workers that commute every day in those infamous trains are not like that. Outside Buenos Aires people are pretty much happy (ask around El Bolson for some super-happy dudes).

 

[citygirl]

Living in BsAs - ball-breaking. And I am without question living a cushioned and protected life here which I am thankful for having.

Online payments? Sure, in theory that's great. Of course to set that up, youll have spent approximately 5926 hours running around to get the paperwork done to apply for the bank account, 362 hours going back and forth to the bank to find someone to open the bank account for you, 293 hours figuring out what the hell you have to do b/c the rules have changed and you need different documents than they told you yesterday, etc, etc

I just got back from another 2 hour errand to Swiss Medical. All this b/c I'm trying to pay them 6 months in advance. Which is impossible apparently. And they can't even keep track of the money I've already paid, I had to talk to 4 different people to show them the receipts for the invoices they keep billing me for that I paid months ago. Online bill payment?? jajajajajajajajajajaja - I'd sooner give an alcoholic the keys to a distillery.

Starting a company? Ohhh... don't get me started on this. You can do it yourself and spend every waking minute of your life signing papers, paying bills (and paying and paying and paying), etc. Or you can pay a pretty penny for someone to do it for you.

Getting around - sure. Take a 30 peso taxi ride or do the bondi for 1.20 but give up 45 minutes of your life on a hot bus.

Meh.. I think the heat is making me extra cranky. I love it here, it's home now but god, I'm just so freaking tired of how difficult everything is here.

 

[citygirl]

Oh yes - and I'm 2 years plus here.

 

[unstuck]

My two cents...

I think we need to remember that some of these cultural traits are very similar in Spain and Italy. In my experience, Italians helped defined the Argentinian mainstream cultural traits and character best. And, of course, then we Argentinians did the rest... If we had had more Blacks around, maybe our national spirit would be more cheerful, like Brazil...

It is not easy to escape one's culture... for those of us who lived several years here and several years abroad, it is easier to start to see what is underneath first impressions. This takes time and open-mindedness... I discovered how Argentinian I was when I moved abroad... After all, we all come to life in a certain context and are socialized to wear certain "cultural masks" (I use this metaphorically, as an anthropologist would).

Dealing with anger and frustration is a challenge for almost anybody that is alive... From this point of view, we are all on the same boat - we all suffer, more or less to the same degree, when we face the reality that things in life don't generally go the way we'd like. It´s the same story, and sometime the same constellation of reactions, whether we are in Beverly Hills or in Villa 31 (but I don´t mean the are the SAME; nobody should live in a shanty town).

I agree with all the comments about all the things that don`t work here and could be better. The question I am trying to answer for my own life, and hopefully the question that the nation has to answer as a whole is, what do you do then? what`s the next step? Even when you have no power and no control over changing the big things, do you choose to live your life with sadness - con amargura - or do you choose to make the most of your life, here and now, and be thankful? Doesn´t it take one person to change to create big change?

The nature of the average Argentinian mind seems to stress the negative over the positive. But this is not just us. Most humans share this problem.

Thoughtful post, and I think you hit the nail on the head re: the Italian character vs the Brazilian character!

And I fully agree that it's about the attitude of the individual -- I could complain all I want about the garbage in the streets and the corruption in the government, but we are all complicit in those problems and we have to take individual responsibility to even begin to effect change. I notice, for example, that in Canada, there was a point when people became aware of the individual's responsibility regarding the environment, and people decided to start recycling, to not litter, because it was the right thing to do. They saw a future where maybe there would be less pollution if we all try -- that's what's missing here, if you never believe things can get better, why bother?

Btw... I was in NYC in Nov-Dec and was surprised at how cheerful and helpful everyone was compared to BA. I think that city has changed a lot in the last 9 years and for the better.

 

[gouchobob]

What kind of day to day hassles though?

You can pay bills online, get almost anything delivered to your door, taxis and public transport make travel easy, plenty of places to eat and buy food (and have that delivered if you can't be arsed to go out)... Thats what daily life generally involves.

Admittedly I haven't got married, inaugurated a company or bought a house recently, but these type of things aren't typical daily activities and tend to involve a lot of paperwork and hassle the world over (except vegas I guess).

Thanks JP for setting me up, we aren't really working in concert. Yes you can pay (some) bills online, let me go through the process. First you have to open a local bank account. I did it and took 5 trips, on one I was told I needed a local utility bill, I returned with same but was told it needed to be a paid bill. Remember I had to travel to the bank each time and stand in line each time, opening a bank account took around 5 hours total, and remember this is for a savings account! The exposure to the bank is zero as you have to do all this to get them to accept your money.

Ok once you have a bank account you can pay (some of)your bills online right, well first you have to get the money into the account. You can't do wire transfers in from your account outside of Argentina without maximum hassles and fees. What you end up doing is going to the ATM standing in line withdrawing funds(paying fees), then going to your bank, standing in line and depositing your money(paying fees). Going to the ATM here is no picnic, please avoid Friday through Monday and holidays as many are empty, to get what you want expect to go to 2 or 3 different ATM's (paying fees), all done while looking over your shoulder to see if you might be robbed after the withdrawal. This takes several hours a month to accomplish. This is my definition of hassle.

It's true you can get things delivered to your home which is definitely not a hassle and a benefit of living here.

Depends on your viewpoint but I personally find the hassles outweigh the benefits of daily life here. I really don't know how the average Argentine gets it all done over a month, no wonder they are angry.

 

[malbec]

Those posting they are "experts" haven't lived long enough in BA, I think. With time you learn the tricks and get enough experience to deal with everyday's life. Of course spanish will be necessary.
All the people I know in BA have a pretty normal life and they are happy to live in the city.
Judging hapiness by how often people smile on the streets is quite...absurd. In any case, give me anyday an angry - but sincere - face rather than a "plastic" fake smile (à la McDonald's)