A Comment About All The Negativity

[walkingtwig]

i find that alot more of my argentine friends complain about argentina more than my expat friends. the fact that expats complain maybe points to the fact that we are becomming more agentine and blending in with the culture?

 

[surfing]

i find that alot more of my argentine friends complain about argentina more than my expat friends. the fact that expats complain maybe points to the fact that we are becomming more agentine and blending in with the culture?

Yes but what is frustrating IME is that as an expat your are never really given full latitude to complain. I always say "it's my country too and I have the right to complain" but I don't think I will ever be able to speak as freely as someone who was born here. I think it's that way in most countries unfortunately: you are an outsider at some level no matter how long you are there.

 

[YanquiGallego]

I think like most things in life, money is one of the main reasons for all the negativity. Many if not most, divorces,family and friendship problems occur because of money situations. It's a known fact that today a ¨typical ex pat lifestyle¨ a la Recoleta/Palermo in Argentina is up to par expensive with many US and European cities, and this is a fact that is highly frustrating for many permatourists who came here reading the out of date guide books promising $5 filet mignon and $3 fernet cocas, so in turn, they get frustrated and see that they are dealing with many standard 3rd world inconveniences (long lines, crimes/robberies, political BS, etc) that they have probably never dealt with before, while paying 1st world prices at their favorite pubs and restos in Palermo and Recoleta and paying short-term rental prices for places that often times arent up to par with what they are used to, and it just outright pisses some people off. (BTW: This is not my case but I have seen it happen to numerous ex pat friends)

On the opposite end, I happen to know of typical Argentinos who feel as though they live ¨well¨ on household incomes under 8000 pesos (with kids) mind you they pay for larger ticket items in cuotas and rarely travel except maybe within Argentina. So I guess it is really all relative to what you have come here expecting and what you feel you ¨NEED¨ in order to live an enjoyable life.

From my experience, most of the perma tourists who are just ¨passing by¨ dont get too involved with the political stuff enough for it to frustrate them so much that it interupts their day to day lives.

 

[ElQueso]

GS_Dirtboy, we absolutely need posts like yours at times to remind us that it isn't all bad here.

I admit that I'm one of the ones who post negative things here. It's not all I post, but the truth is I'm not a tourist, I'm not retired, I'm not here to learn Spanish or teach English, or with the main intent of learning a new culture (of course, that is a benefit I do get and it's not lost on me by any means), etc. Unfortunately, I spend an inordinate amount of time working and don't have time for much more than an occasional outing to eat or go to the movies, so I simply do not concentrate on things like that.

I'm involved to a good extent though, having an extended family that I help survive here and having a young lady in school here. I also employ programmers and have Argentine friends. I've been involved in building (or neighborhood, when I lived in Pilar) decisions in certain cases, though since I'm a renter (long term) and not an owner, those are unfortunately a bit restricted as to how involved I can become. I'm also involved with school society as relates to my sister-in-law.

I've lived here since the middle of 2006 and when I first came, I was very positive. It took me about a year to realize how screwed up many things were. It took me some time to deal with that.

We may differ on how to approach dealing with such things.

For example, I need to let off steam in order to help me cope. I find this forum helps me to do just that, but of course, it's not the only means of doing so.

I'm simply not the kind of guy who can just shrug off some things. Doesn't matter where I am, actually. Things like rudeness, elitism/racism (which, my family being Paraguayan, we are confronted with at least on a weekly basis) and corruption are things that, to me, should be a universal standard, no matter where you are. Just like murder is universally against the law, for example, wherever you are in this world. I know that's an extreme comparison, but it's how I feel.

Those who have been here for the last 4, 5, 6 years must be able to see that things are going downhill. That, to me, is a thing of great concern and warrants discussion. If we don't discuss it, such data never see the light of day.

Which brings me to the latest bunch of negativity that is being posted. Others in this thread before me said something similar. The policies of this country are getting worse, particularly this year. Most of the bitching I've seen recently (and have participated in myself) have been related to specifically that.

I can't see anything wrong with that, particularly considering that this directly affects those of us who have put some roots down in this country and cannot even vote. Hell, I've tried to get something so relatively simple changed as some policies at the private school where my sister-in-law attends high school and that is a lesson in absolute futility - but I still try.

Another thing that one must realize about the bitching that goes on here:

I remember a few years ago how many people were coming down here on a whim and staying, without even realizing things like you need a guarantee to rent anything long term. They come down thinking that life here is great, getting a job shouldn't be too hard, finding a place to live is simply a matter of settling on where you want to live, etc.

There's nothing wrong with that. But if all they see on the forum all the time are people talking about their positive experiences, they aren't going to have any forewarning about true realities that they will face. If someone sees how things are and still makes the decision, more power to them. At least they had the opportunity to make an informed decision.

People used to attack (to varying degrees) anyone here who had anything negative to say, explicitly telling those who bitched "love it or leave it." I think that's quite ineffective advice for many who are here (including myself) and simply causes bad feelings. And BTW - I'm not saying that's what you're doing with this post, GS_Dirtboy, I'm talking about the other extreme, well beyond your quite polite statement of concern about the negativity that you see on the forum.

I haven't seen anything on the forum that has been completely false, on the negative side. I have seen some exaggerations, sure. But I have seen people deny that some of the negative things are happening, or excuse it as isolated cases, or complete exaggerations. Mostly because nothing seriously negative has happened to them, I think, not due to any sinister reason or anything like that.

If we all stop talking about negative things, people who don't understand what life here is really like simply won't get the complete story. Although there are many posts talking about negativity, going back some time, if we don't keep discussing what's going on, that data will fade after a time and will be more difficult to come by.

The big question I have though:

Why does it disturb people so much to see the other truth about Argentina?

For the life of me, I simply can't understand why people are so against those of us who have concerns airing them in an open forum. I can certainly understand if someone is making a positive comment and someone breaks in and says "You're a f***ing idiot to say that, don't you see all the s**t that's all around you?" But if it's politely phrased, what's the problem?

Why can't the positive that people see here be balanced with the negative as well? This place is far from a Paradise, I don't think anyone would really argue that point, except certain seemingly Peronista supporters who have posted blindly here from time to time, who seem to have an actual agenda.

Many of the negative threads that are started are fairly obvious. Why not just ignore them if one doesn't want to think or read about these things? I'm not sure I understand the need or desire to paint only a pretty picture about Argentina, or Buenos Aires in particular.

In my opinion, there is certainly enough information on both subjects to supply what I consider to be a realistic, if not complete, picture.

And having said all of that, I am truly concerned about my future here. Some of the things that I have read independently have worried me about exactly what it is that Cristina is trying to do. I've found this site, when some really worrying things are backed up with cited links, to be a wealth of information.

I am watching to see what happens in the next few months with serious thought to picking up and moving to Paraguay. I think others may feel this way as well (well, probably not many considering Paraguay!) and this forum provides us with some tools we need to help make such a decision.

I'm not considering moving because people are rude here, the corruption is bad, or anything else like that. I'm actually worried that Argentina may be on the brink of changing for the worst politically, which could bring greater problems.

 

[wreReynolds]

Frankly, I am sick of all the complaining about the negativity. Let´s have more negativity!

Couldn´t find the smiley for sarcasm.

RR

 

[sergio]

A lot of the expats here hate their own country, mostly the US. During the Bush era some of them liked to say that they were escaping Bush. Now that things are bad, if not worse, under Obama the same "refugee" expats are reluctant to admit that the situation is worse in Argentina. They invent excuses for every failing of the society and government - something they would never do for their own people and nation.

 

[Ashley]

I think El Queso is spot on with his comment. I am fully aware of the positive aspects of living in Buenos Aires. However, as someone who came here looking for a different lifestyle and who, ten years later, now has a career and a family here, the significant decline in quality of life that has occurred in the past couple of years (and the past year especially) is disappointing and worrying. While packing up and moving on is an option (all be it a costly and difficult one), many of us have significant ties here and can't just do that from one month to the next. Having this forum as a place to vent...and to hear from people who are in exactly the same boat (especially when complaining expats are so frequently shut up with a "go back home then") has been absolutely sanity-saving!

 

[Gringoboy]

Like many others, I came not to relish in what I thought would be a better life, but because I fell in love with an Argentine lady. I even left my then wife to be with her down here.
Love can move mountains, but it doesn't change where you are.
On balance (not that I require more than a nano second to ponder that), I know I made the right decision.
We'll all get through this difficult time, one way or the other.

 

[lucha54]

We'll all get through this difficult time, one way or the other.

For people who keep saying they moved here in 2006 and it has gone downhill, doesn't Argentina have a habit of the 10-year boom/bust cycle? Economic crashes ever 10-15 years, then mild recovery, then shit gets rough again and it crashes... hasn't this been going on for decades here? So I think most of the "the situation is going downhill" crowd is people who came in the mid-2000s. Anyone on here that has been here since the mid-90s? Could you please explain how this is just history repeating itself and that Argentina will weather the storm and pull-through (only to do it all over again) just like it always has... that's my 2c

 

[ElQueso]

For people who keep saying they moved here in 2006 and it has gone downhill, doesn't Argentina have a habit of the 10-year boom/bust cycle? Economic crashes ever 10-15 years, then mild recovery, then shit gets rough again and it crashes... hasn't this been going on for decades here? So I think most of the "the situation is going downhill" crowd is people who came in the mid-2000s. Anyone on here that has been here since the mid-90s? Could you please explain how this is just history repeating itself and that Argentina will weather the storm and pull-through (only to do it all over again) just like it always has... that's my 2c

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

If the future could be predicted from past events, that would really be something. Unfortunately, the general shape of the future can only be guessed at. As humans without the power of true precognition, we can pretty much only predict a wide set of possibilities for the coming future, based on what has occurred in the past.

The more specific we try to be with our determinations of the future based on past events, the more likely we are to be wrong in the details. There are just too many specific possibilities. The more removed we are from the events we are trying to predict, the less certain those predictions. Made even more so by not knowing exactly when the events we are trying to predict will actually occur.

I don't think anyone really thinks that Argentina, the country, will just disappear, no matter what happens during this cycle of chaos. Of course it will "pull through." But who says that this cycle won't result in a different set of political realities as bad as has happened in the past? Who are going to be the people actually affected by whatever happened? How badly are they going to be affected?

Will there be some big backlash against foreigners this time that wasn't a big issue during the last cycle? Will a period of bad times return, similar to the Dirty War maybe, as people fight back politically (or in other manners) against the idiotic policies being enacted now? Peron's second wife signed decrees giving the police and military powers to wipe out the left-wing opposition. That didn't turn out too good for a lot of people.

So which of the cycles that occurred in Argentina's past will be repeated? I'd like to be informed as history chugs along so I can try to make some sort of informed guess as to if or when it's necessary to jump.

Complacency is the root of much evil.