Amazing how expensive BsArs is

[ElQueso]

I got to talking with a crew of manual labourers one day. Not sure exactly what they did, but it seemed like it was related to plumbing or duct work.

Well, okay, to be fair, they were probably not native porteños, but Paraguayans or Bolivians, but yes. Unless more than half a dozen people concertedly lied to me about their average monthly income. They did say that they have some months better than others, but that in the end it comes out to around a thousand pesos.

They could have just been trying to score some pity money out of a gringo, but they didn't seem like the sort. Besides, I can play the "WTF man, I'm an unemployed Russian, I don't have any money either" card pretty convincingly.

I think they were probably exaggerating a little bit. If not, they are pretty ignorant of the real job market out there and are probably being taken advantage of.

I know from direct, first-hand experience what's available out there. Four of my wife's 5 brothers have come to Buenos Aires to work. It takes awhile to get the whole residency thing in play so they can work in white, so in the meantime they work in black. For example, one came a week ago, another one two weeks ago. They both have appointments to get their precaria in June. Until then they will work in black. All their other brothers, cousins, etc, have residency and work in white.

One is making 1900 pesos a month working in a verduleria. The other is working a temporary construction job (remodeling a ferreteria to turn it into a cafeteria, about 3 months it seems) and is making 130 pesos a day. His actually monthly earnings will be between 2500 and 3000 pesos depending on how many days he ends up working in a month.

That latter job is a bit unusually high for a new worker working in black, particularly because he's working for a "chino" (everyone from somewhere in Asia is a chino to them I think they are actually Taiwanese), who are notoriously cheap.

With one brother came his girlfriend (this past week) and with the other brother came a female cousin (the previous week). They are both working in a lavanderia for about 2000 pesos a month. The cousin also found two other jobs through the managers at the lavanderia taking care of their kids at night, various times a week and may make as much as 3000 pesos a month.

Even those salaries are pretty low to me, when looking at prices of various things here, but those are much more in line with what starting out Argentinos make as well, a bit less I think, but the Argentinos I know are mostly upper-middle class educated people with white collar jobs, so I'm not sure.

I'd be willing to bet that the construction workers you talked to make a bit more than they are saying, but they may make what they said. When my first brother-in-law came here three years ago, he started out making 600 pesos a month working as a dishwasher in a restaurant run by "chinos." My wife spent a lot of time finding an employment agency that actually helps place lower-end jobs like this (run by a "china" ) and in relatively little time her brother was making double, and went up from there. So those construction workers may not have had the help and experience my wife gave to her brothers and that's why they make such poor wages.

As far as living - many Paraguayans and Bolivians live in the villas. They pay maybe 200-400 pesos in rent to whoever put up the building they live in (and these are real s***holes, believe me, I've been there a few times), don't pay any utility bills, etc. They eat the cheapest food they can find and still sometimes manage to send a couple of hundred pesos back home to their families.

It used to be that many construction sites would let the workers live on the premises. I don't know if that's still the case. Also, it's common for the managers of the construction site to provide lunch for the workers.

My wife's family all live in hotels. They were tempted at first to go live in the Retiro Villa (never can remember its "number"), but my wife forbade it absolutely. They live 2-3 to a room, sharing a 1200-1500 pesos a month rent.

 

[steveinbsas]

Steve you are starting to sound and look more like the unabomber everyday. But at least you are not boring. Looking forward to that manifesto.

First it was Charlie Manson, now it's the unabomber. Do you really think you're funny...or know what you're talking about?

As far as a manifesto which expresses principles I actually agree with, I suggest you read "Capitalism, the Unknown Ideal" by Ayn Rand.

The first sentence of the unabomber's manifesto is the antithesis of what I believe. Ted Kaczynski wrote: "The Industrial Revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the human race."

The first sentence of the introduction to "Capitalism the Unknown Ideal" has never been more applicable than it is today and I agreed with it when I first read it when I was in high school in the late 1960's and while was earning my degree in economics in the early 1970's.

In 1966 Ayn Rand wrote: "No politico-economic system in history has ever proved its value so eloquently or has benefited mankind so greatly as capitalism—and none has ever been attacked so savagely, viciously, and blindly."

And I wonder why you have to to refer to my looks in some weird attempt to refute or discredit what I post here.

PS: I recently sent the photo which I am using as my avatar to two women. One is my former 33 y.o. GF in CF who replied that she thought I look like Sean Connery. The other to a woman I have loved since we met in college in the early 70's and haven't seen or spoken with in 20 years. She called me from Dubai the next day...and it wasn't because I've lost my looks. (Her mom was a Vargas model in the 1930's and at 61 she (the daughter) is still awesomely beautiful.)

I hope you look as good at 62 (and I'm very surprised and happy that I do).

And I must add that I'm not at all unhappy that my photo does not appeal to you.

 

[garygrunson]

Only stating the obvious, your other photo was very conservative, this new photo is completely wild and you appear to be shirtless. And your views towards a more recluse lifestyle...well they fit right in with the patterns of old Ted.

Do I think I am funny? ...sometimes yes.

Do I know what I am talking about? ..probably not.

And you don't look bad for 62. Keep up the good work.

 

[steveinbsas]

I wasn't shirtless...I was naked.

Just be glad for small favors.

(I had to say it before you could).

I have three weeks to go before I hit 62, but who's counting?

At least you didn't compare me to Ted Bundy (I moved to Utah in 1975 and he was "active" there at the time).

That would have been even more despicable than the Manson or Kaczynski comparisons.

I apologize for the fact that this is way off the topic, but I believe that I have the right to respond to personal attacks (and I don't equate personal opinions with the latter).

 

[nicoenarg]

Alrighty, I know the older folks are having fun telling each other they don't look 62 but younger (one oldie to the other: "you don't like 62 honey, you look 60!" the other oldie: "YAY! Will you marry me?"), but going back to what the thread was actually discussing. I asked my friend who lives in Glasgow to provide me with some numbers about expenses, so here it goes (all numbers below represent /month expense for a couple):

Glasgow:
Rent (in a nicer part of town, 1 BR apartment): 525 pounds (Approx. 3756 pesos);
Council Tax: 130 pounds (Approx. 930 pesos);
Electric and water (they don't use gas at all, everything is run on electric): 75 pounds (Approx. 536 pesos);
Apartment Expenses (upkeep, elevator, etc): (Landlord pays so) 0 pounds (Approx. 0 pesos );
Eating Out (if they go out only once every weekend): 60 pounds (Approx. 429 pesos);
Groceries: 120 pounds (Approx. 858 pesos);
Public Transport (calculated at 22 days a month and if a separate ticket is bought every day. It costs less if you buy a monthly ticket): 71 pounds (Approx. 508 pesos).

Total: 981 pounds (Approx. 7020 pesos, rounded off with other expenses: 7500~8000 pesos).

Buenos Aires:
Rent (in a nicer part of town): I don't pay rent so someone help me out here.
Council Tax: Someone help me out here too.
Electric/Gas (this is the average, and with subsidies; last time I paid 20 pesos for electric): 100+30 = 130 pesos (Approx. 18 pounds);
Apartment Expenses + Water (we pay it all together): 800 pesos (Approx. 111 pounds);
Eating Out (if we go out once a week): 600 pesos (Approx. 83 pounds);
Groceries (this varies from month to month but not considering groceries bought for guests etc.): 2000 pesos (Approx. 279 pounds);
Public Transport (since we don't have full day pass here, I am going to use 2 subte trips for this calculation. Calculated for 22 days a month): 110 pesos (Approx. 15 pounds).

Total: 3640 without rent and council tax (Approx. 508 pounds). Like I rounded off for Glasgow, I will do the same here and round it up to ~4000 pesos.

For Glasgow, if we take out the rent and council tax, we have: 8000-3756-930=3314 pesos.

Glasgow is also known as Scotland's party town (because of the student population) and in some things is a lot more expensive than Aberdeen or Edinburgh (housing is more expensive in Edinburgh).

Once I get the numbers for rent and council tax or ABL,I will update this post.

 

[El chabon]

Food is not what really makes live expensive. We are back in Germany and my first impression was the same. How cheap food is! But if you come back to daily live you see what really counts: health insurance (a duty in Europe) 330 € each person, electricity: more than 100 € per months without using air-condition, heating (you need that here) 100 per months, ticket for bus+train 80 per month, entrance museum 7 €....
Finally it is the same or let me say finally living in Buenos Aires is cheaper. I am not living in an expensive city; if I would live in one of the most expensive cities in Europe the rent would be much more. For what you pay for a great luxury apartment in puerto madero you will hardly find a 3 room apartment in Paris or London.

Across the border in Holland, healthcare is little over 100 euro a month but there any many places in (west) Germany where you can rent 3 room appartment or house for 400-600 euro a month, and for that you definitly not getting a 1 bedroom appartment in BA.