Andrew Graham-Yooll On A Decade Of Kirchnerism

[TrevorCito]

Argentinos for the best part of 50 years have suffered to the point of numbness so much so that they have forgotten how good life can be in a balance and well formed society. They bang pots in protest but do nothing to really improve things because they don't know any better. Other than the few enlightened argentines I have met, the majority have not lived os, experienced financial stability, social stability nor political stability. Along comes Christina and her husband offering total reform. What happens? The poor and unenlightened jump on the k train because it's better than they have. What they don't realize is that it's no better than before and is going to get worse because the k clan do not have the answers. Very sad indeed.

I read campora supporters every day defending the government spruking statistics and the great things being done. If you are one of the them let me share a little secret with you. You're being conned.

 

[AmigoArtistico]

They bang pots in protest but do nothing to really improve things because they don't know any better.

I'm sorry, but we (I'm not Argentine, but my wife is) went out into the streets banging pots -- well over a million of us -- because we do know better. There are more that a few enlightened Argentinians. You can say that people should have seen this coming before the last elections (many people did have strong reservations for a long time before the last elections), but that's not really fair, because what we're seeing now is a blitz attack that began right after the last elections. Before then, things weren't being well managed, but there was nothing like what's going on now.

What would you suggest the response should be? Start shooting people? The marches have made an enormous difference. Don't think they haven't. Everybody is acutely aware of what's going on now. People are doing what they can. If you have some good, practical suggestions, I'm sure everyone would like to hear them. I know I would.

Hopefully the fraud in the coming elections can be kept to a minimum, the opposition will have an electoral agreement in place, the kirchneristas will lose control of the Congress, and the present dangers to the democracy can be minimized for the time being.

But there are some problems in Argentina that really impede long term improvement. The constitution and government institutions are weak (as we are very clearly seeing at the moment). Corruption is institutionalized. One of the highest paying jobs in Argentina is being a politician. Congressional salaries are way out of line with the incomes of the ordinary people, which causes members of congress to put their own interests before the interests of their constituents. (The median income in Argentina is around $3500/month. This year, the salary for most diputados, when adding various allowances, is $65,000/month. That's 20 times the median income! And that's just the legal income. Compare that to the US, for example, where a US Congressman makes 3.5 times the median income. It's a serious problem, and one that's unlikely to be solved.)

Diputados y senadores subieron sus sueldos un 21,8%, casi 6.500 pesos por mes:

http://www.clarin.co..._861513991.html


If you tell me there are problems with influence peddling in the US Congress, I won't argue with you. That is a problem. But the obscene difference in congressional salaries here is an undeniable impediment to honest representation in government. People jump parties all the time here, without any thought given to the people that voted for them, purely for personal gain. Look up Borocotó. His name is now a word in Argentina. And he's far from alone. Here's the latest, just a couple days ago, joining the kirchneristas in the senate (how much do you think they paid her):

http://www.clarin.co..._925107537.html

And here's some reaction from some of her very important former constituents:

http://infocampo.com...ersona-no-grata

It would be nice to know that the person you voted for is going to represent you well and faithfully, but in Argentina, it's impossible to have that certainty. It doesn't mean that the people are unenlightened.

And it certainly doesn't mean that they don't know any better. It's just that in Argentina, knowing better isn't always enough.

 

[TrevorCito]

You were probably manipulated into banging pots by the likes of clarin et.al who breed fear rather than objectivity.

Guns, killing and shooting is not the answer but organized civil disobedience does work. Will this happen? Unlikely.

 

[AmigoArtistico]

Ok, Trevor, if you say so. You can tell that I'm the easily manipulated type, can you?

If you mean that I'm easily manipulated:

• by the imminent threat of the loss of freedom of the press,
• by the loss of independence of the judicial branch of the government,
• by my abhorrence of the obscene level of corruption in the government,
• by the threat from indoctrination by the Cámpora in the schools,
• by seeing a convicted killer -- who murdered his wife by setting her on fire -- enjoying himself at a kirchnerista political event half a block from my house, two months after his conviction,
• by the collapsing infrastructure in the country causing hundreds of deaths and thousands of injuries,

well, then yes, I guess I have to plead guilty.

But, Trevor, if none of these things -- all documented independently by many sources inside and outside Argentina -- bother you, I have to wonder what's going on in that head of yours.

I really don't think I'm the one with the objectivity problem here.

Oh, and could you elaborate a little for us on your "civil disobedience" plan? It seems a bit short on details.

Thanks

 

[TrevorCito]

The pot banging marches have done nothing to improve things. Sure, they have created awareness and the middle class have bonded in the streets but really, the disturbing list of problems you state will remain unresolved until the average Argentine grows a pair, stops blaming the government and assumes responsibly for the state of affairs in a unified way.

Could it be that the Argentine heart craves suffering and persecution.... The central tenant of tango and the bandañon...

Civil disobedience... I think you know what I'm talking about.

 

[AmigoArtistico]

What are you talking about, man?

Let's put aside for a moment the fact that you really don't know what you're talking about regarding the marches.

Can you explain this part of what you're saying?

[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]"...until the average Argentine grows a pair, stops blaming the government and assumes responsibly for the state of affairs in a unified way."[/background]

[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]I mean really explain it. With concrete, specific examples. What, exactly, are you proposing here? And how, exactly, do you think your proposal -- if you're able to articulate it -- is going to resolve all of Argentina's "disturbing list of problems?"[/background]

[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]Because what you've said, Trevor, up to now, is a bunch of nothing.[/background]

[background=rgb(252, 252, 252)]And no, I don't "know what you're talking about." So tell me.[/background]

 

[TrevorCito]

Duplicate post

 

[TrevorCito]

From Federico these owner of the bakery, to Peter the taxi driver to Raul the architect to Paul the street carton collector the message is clear.... It's the governments fault. Really?

Never do I hear anybody ask why they've let it come to this. Never is there discussion about why the people have allowed the country to socially, politically and financially decay over the last 50 years.

The Argentine people have nobody to blame but themselves for the mess they're in because for some inexplicable reason, they are big on rhetoric con poco acción. And no, a million people banging pots just doesn't cut it.

 

[notebook.fix]

You were probably manipulated into banging pots by the likes of clarin et.al who breed fear rather than objectivity.

In all fairness I took part in most of the anti Goverment marches & I never even bother to read Clarin. To suggest that the caceroleros have all been 'brainwashed' by Clarin is a little simplistic to say the least.

The marches get bigger every time they are held & for the politically naive who don't get the purpose of a people's street march, it is the ONLY way to raise public awareness & to embarrass the KKs.. it's to show to the the rest of the country that an important & growing number of law abiding citizens DO NOT AGREE with the K government. Why do you think Cristina bans civilian air traffic from flying over the city on those nights? Cause she's worried a heli could fall & crash into a crowd of caceroleros? No...it's to make sure no aerial photos of the marches are taken. Yes it does have a very direct political impact. A very embarrassing one.

Everyone knows that the marches have to be peaceful & passive at this stage, to do otherwise is to play into the hands of the corruption bosses. We can't just walk into the Casa Rosada & remove the Corrupt Queen from her throne, she's got to be seen to fail on her own merits... in full public view, so that the morons who voted her in get their noses 'rubbed in it'. To attempt to remove her prematurely is to turn her into a martyr..this would be a bad political move.. but this doesn't mean we just passively sit there & quietly wait till the country is totally destroyed either.

10 million out of 40 million Argetnitnes voted for this mistake, they're not 54% of the population like some KKs like to have us believe.

 

[scotttswan]

Everyone knows that the marches have to be peaceful & passive at this stage, to do otherwise is to play into the hands of the corruption bosses. We can't just walk into the Casa Rosada & remove the Corrupt Queen from her throne, she's got to be seen to fail on her own merits... in full public view, so that the morons who voted her in get their noses 'rubbed in it'. To attempt to remove her prematurely is to turn her into a martyr..this would be a bad political move.. but this doesn't mean we just passively sit there & quietly wait till the country is totally destroyed either.

10 million out of 40 million Argetnitnes voted for this mistake, they're not 54% of the population like some KKs like to have us believe.

I fear she'll be a martyr to many no matter how it ends up. The "anti k's" will get the blame for this governments failures.