Any UBA graduates out there?

[emilyr]

Laurel, I am not clear if you want to do a posgrado or a grado program here. I have some experience because I did an exchange and am now in a Masters there, but my fiance has even more since he did his entire undergraduate program and is an immigrant as well, so he had to deal with that stressful side. It is hard to get started with some of the programs because you have to complete the cursos of the Ciclo Basico and that is even more bureacracy than even the regular facultad. Feel free to PM me if you want to chat with me or my fiance.

SaraSara....your husband must be genius! Seriously. I did an exchange in UBA and now I am in the program for Maestria en Economia. I have SOOOO much respect for my professors and classmates who are way smarter and more prepared than me (and I was no poor student in the US) AND work full-time.

I think Argentina citizens should feel so proud to offer a FREE public institution with as quality a level as UBA is, especially when higher educational access like this is slowly being eroded all over. I think only 7% of students who starts the economics undergraduate carrera finish, so while it may be finanicially accessible to everyone, it's not truly "accessible" to everyone, particularly if their had poor colegio preparation. And, it may be disorganized, but hell, it's free and in the Facultad where I go to alone, I believe there are 60,000 students and is one of the largest college of economic sciences in the world. So for all its imperfections, UBA is certainly a world class gem!

 

[Nefertiti]

Let me join others and tell u that My field is in international education (USA) and UBA Engineering is excellent although not as specialized as it used to be so UBA is very good much more than most privates ones here for sure.

 

[emilyr]

Technically speaking, licenciatura IS the same as a Bachelor's degree in the US, even though US is only five years and has a lot more general studies requirements. But just like in the US, QUALITY HIGHTLY VARIES.

I had a US friend who took painfully easy classes at a (will go unnamed) private university in Argentina WITH Argentines, earning 10s with little to no work. An Argentine professional friend and classmate of mine studied in a private university in Gran Buenos Aires for his licenciatura, was one of their top students and is even an ayudante in courses there and at a nearby public university, and he was not prepared for how big a jump there would be between UBA posgrado and his grado.

The work most UBA students do is not comparable to what most US undergraduate students do to earn their degree, which is what makes it UBA and awesome. (But you can easily find other licenciaturs programs at some other private univerisities that are, or worse.)

Katherine, if I was someone in your position, I would think it would be valuable to study a semester or year in senior level courses as an "international exchange" student in grado before going into a Master's program at UBA. Because there are no general studies, you are right that the level in your carrera they are expected to reach in those five years is higher. I just happened to do an exchange there, but without it, I would not have survived the first semester in the graduate studies!!! (I also only survived because I started in engineering in the States and had taken extra math classes.) Even if you speak fluent Spanish, there will always be cultural differences in the academics and focus, so it would be worth it to dip in your toe--especially if students are coming right from undergrad. Why not dip in their toe in some undergrad classes for a semester since the graduate degrees don't start until the following March? But a licenciatura is still technically a bachelor's degree, so for folks who already have their Bachelor's degree, I think it would be unreasonable to try to completely redo a licenciatura here because you do have to start WAY at the beginning and it is a long haul.

 

[karasulli]

Has anyone here studied law at UBA, or know anyone who has? I will be graduating from Harvard Extension in the summer and I'm interested in returning to Buenos Aires to study law. I know that grad programs at UBA charge tuition, does anyone know how much that is? Any other general info?
I think that if I were to return to practice in the US I'd have to go to school here for my LLM, but if anyone has any more info on this I'd be very appreciative.

 

[voyagingknoxvillian]

I have no experience with law school in Argentina, but I am a licensed attorney from the states.

Unlike the US, law school in Argentina is not a graduate level program. Students enroll in law as college freshman and the entire law degree takes 5-6 years at a public institution. I personally would hate to go through undergrad twice, and still not be able to practice in the US.

The US (and Great Britain, ect) is on the common law legal system. Argentina (and most of the rest of the world) is on the civil law legal system. The class work is very different, as Argies do not focus on case law the way US law schools do.

In terms of practicing law in the country where you did not attend law school, this could be a problem (a MUCH BIGGER problem than if you had an Argie degree in medicine, architecture or the sciences for example), but there are definitely opportunities in Argentina for US licensed attorneys.

I know a few Argie attorneys with LLMs from prestigious US law schools, but none stayed in the US and became licensed.

Suerte!

Has anyone here studied law at UBA, or know anyone who has? I will be graduating from Harvard Extension in the summer and I'm interested in returning to Buenos Aires to study law. I know that grad programs at UBA charge tuition, does anyone know how much that is? Any other general info?
I think that if I were to return to practice in the US I'd have to go to school here for my LLM, but if anyone has any more info on this I'd be very appreciative.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

I am a native attorney from UBA and a former ad honorem professor with 7 years of experience, so I know very well both sides.

The system we have has 3 years of general law (CPC) and the last 2 years you chose your specialization (CPO). So, we study in 3 years what private universities ask in 5 years. The CPO is the same program that the UBA offers as an specialization (some kind of llm) for former students of others universities.

I worked in high profile jobs (Luis Moreno Ocampo Law Firm and CELS) and I can tell you that CVs from private universities goes straight to the dust bin. Sometimes at the clasificados they say "only UBA". And the market is full with Argentinians with master degrees from Columbia, NYU, Harvard, Cornell, UCLA among others, and it is difficult for them to get a job. There are some very big law firms specialized about Corporate but they only hire secundum laude (the 10 best of every year among 30.000 students) and they pay for their LLM at Harvard or Columbia.

We have a saying, if you finish your degree without experience, then you are going to be a average taxi driver. So, even wealthy Argentinians works during the studies, usually for free.

Columbia university exchanges CPO students for their LLM program, so they recognize CPO as LLM. About the recognition of UBA, my former fiance made this student exchange program with Columbia and after she finish the degree she applied for a spills program at Stanford and received a full scholarship, and now she has a PHD (google cecilia naddeo).

In criminal law, we have more exchange for doctor degree with Germany. We are not so interested about US universities.

In fact, at international courts there are UBA lawyers at very important positions. The judges hire UBA lawyers specialized in international law because they are the best. At the Hague works like this (International justice Court).
Fabricio Guariglia is the Chamber Prosecutor at The International Criminal Court who belongs to Maier´s Catedra as me. Luis Moreno Ocampo who was my boss used to be the prosecutor of the international Court.

At Washington, Victor Abramovich was one of the comisionados of the Intenamerican Commission about Human Rights and many of the lawyers that works there are from UBA. The same at The Interamerican Court of Human Rights in Costa Rica, there are some friends working there too.

But at UBA we don´t give any importance to LLM because this is just a business of US universities where you pay 40.000 for a paper you get in 1 year were all of them approves it after writing a 40 pages thesis. We are focus on doctorado that takes about 10 years and you suppose to write something innovative that improves our society and you need to defend it under a jury. An standard thesis is a book with no less that 400 pages.

About the UBA, there are another saying, if you survives it, life in this country seems easy after that. The whole system is design to be difficult and nobody is looking to make this easier. In my experience, an smile and good manners with a strong character (we say, iron hand into a silk glove) help a lot instead of the US style of requiring efficiency or customer service. There is not such a thing as customer service or Trader´s Joe philosophy, you have to prove that in a poor country like this one, you deserve to be there using the tax money. There are 30.000 students and only 1000 per year finish it, and there are 50.000 lawyer at the Bar of Ciudad de Buenos Aires. So, the market is extremely competitive. There are more lawyers in this city than in the whole france with 3 times more people and 7 times more money.

And as soon as this is a public university, nobody kick you out as a professor if you are really exigent, in fact they encourage you to be like that. In fact, we used to give 10.000 pages for a 4 month subject and 40% didn´t make it as a average rate. After that we were hired at a private university, students there were used to study 200 pages, they made a stroke and after 98% of them had a 2 they went to complain because "they pay the fee" and the decano said us we have to approve them, we quit.

There is not such a thing as multiple choice at UBA.

If there are 7 authors who wrote about the same subject with different points of wiew, you study them all, even if this means to read all the books. For Basic Criminal Law, a 1 year subject, I studied 40.000 pages and I studied all the most important authors.

So, they try hard to teach students to think.

The secret is simple, there is a subject like civil, with about 10 catedras: Ghersi, etc, etc, etc. You have to find out how is every catedra´s master. And after that, you have to find out who is the best teacher in that catedra. Never go to centro de estudiantes to ask which professor is easy, because there are easy ones, but arbitrary. Is is better to look for the good ones because they are going to give you a far play, you study like hell, he/she approve you. We call it the HCS rate (horas culo silla).

So, UBA is extremely competitive.

Catedra: Means that there is a Master with his doctor degree. And he has between 10 to 50 professors who teach with his book and point of wiew regarding his doctoral thesis. There are a huge difference levels among the catedras and the professors. For example, I used to belong to Maier´s Catedra wich was focus on criminal procedure and constitutional law. That was the best, he request to have a llm to be a permanent profesor (He only accepts an llm from each university around the world, so this way he created a think tank, there are not two professor with an llm at the same university) and you had 10 years to finish your doctor degree or he fires you. On the other hand, there are some catedras that are pathetic. So, the UBA is so huge that is like you have 10 universities inside one and you can finish your degree being an outstanding lawyer or an average, which means better that the private universities ones.

And everybody works there for free or 200 pesos a month, which means that they are giving back the UBA the opportunity it gave them.

Regards

 

[Bajo_cero2]

Has anyone here studied law at UBA, or know anyone who has? I will be graduating from Harvard Extension in the summer and I'm interested in returning to Buenos Aires to study law. I know that grad programs at UBA charge tuition, does anyone know how much that is? Any other general info?
I think that if I were to return to practice in the US I'd have to go to school here for my LLM, but if anyone has any more info on this I'd be very appreciative.

It cost 25 pesos an hour, the specialization on criminal law are 480 hours plus 25 pesos, this is 12.000 pesos, 3000 u$s.
However, everything is easier at the posgrado, don´t freak out with my description about UBA.
http://www.derecho.uba.ar/academica/posgrados/contactenos.php
http://www.derecho.uba.ar/academica/posgrados/carr_esp_derpenal.php

And these are the professors:

• Gabriel Anitua (Thesis on Publicity and TV on the trial)
• Alejandro Basile (???)
• Mary Beloff (Juvenil criminal procedure, Harvard LLM) (Belongs to Maier´s catedra)
• Alberto Binder (Master in criminal procedure)
• Mariano Borinsky (?)
• Javier Buján (Banned)
• Luis Bunge Campos (He is a good prosecutor and a good average teacher)
• José A. Buteler (?)
• Gustavo Bruzzone (Outstanding, Criminal procesure)
• María Cristina Camiña (?)
• Carlos Chiara Díaz (Banned)
• Arístides Corti ()
• Javier de la Fuente (Forme Judo colleague, I don´t know him as a professor)
• Eleonora Devoto (?)
• Horacio Días (?)
• Edgardo Donna (Master of $Catedra of criminal law, he is gaga)
• Acelino Do Pico (?)
• Cristian Durrieu (banned)
• Carlos Elbert (Master of an good Catedra of crominal procedure)
• Alicia Farinati (?)
• Noemí Goldztern de Rempel (?)
• Hernán Gullco (Constitutional law applied to criminal cases)
• Edmundo Hendler (Master of an excellent Catedra of crominal procedure)
• Lucila Larrandart (Excellent)
• Carlos Lascano (?)
• Patricia Llerena (?)
• Héctor Magariños (Oustanding, criminal sustantive theory, based on german criminal law, if you want to suffer, he is the one)
• Claudio Martiniuk (?)
• Elías Neuman (Specialized in jail with the left theory, blablabla)
• Juan S. Pegoraro (?)
• Gladys Romero (?)
• Maximiliano Rusconi (Outstanding in criminal law)(he belongs to Maier´s catedra)
• José Sáez Capel (?)
• Jorge Sarli (?)
• Norberto Spolansky (Not recommended)
• Ignacio Tedesco (He belongs to hendler catedra, he is an excellent professor and public defensor at the federal court)(but he has not unique ideas)
• Carlos Villegas (?)
• Julio Virgolini (Banned, he used to be excellent, but he is a politician nowadays)

 

[karasulli]

Thank you very much for all of the information. However, I am still confused. After I graduate with my undergraduate degree next summer, is there a JD or equvalent program in Buenos Aires? if there isn't, do I just take the two year specialization? I've heard that international schools arent recognized outside of the US, but that someone who completes a foreign law program can sit for the bar after they have earned their LLM in the united states. So it seems to me that you go away for school, bypass the JD?? and then come back and get your llm, and then you've done more in a shorter period of time than your other collegues. Am I wrong?

 

[Bajo_cero2]

Thank you very much for all of the information. However, I am still confused. After I graduate with my undergraduate degree next summer, is there a JD or equvalent program in Buenos Aires? if there isn't, do I just take the two year specialization? I've heard that international schools arent recognized outside of the US, but that someone who completes a foreign law program can sit for the bar after they have earned their LLM in the united states. So it seems to me that you go away for school, bypass the JD?? and then come back and get your llm, and then you've done more in a shorter period of time than your other collegues. Am I wrong?

The UBA law school offers the abogado-lawyer degree of 6 years including the CBC (there is not admission test, you have to take 6 subjects) which is equivalent to the JD. The undergraduate studies here must be on the same subject (I understand that there you can study whatever and then do the JD). The undergraduate degree here is called procurador (paralegal) but nobody takes attention to it because this is for losers who didn´t make it (in another 2 years you get the lawyer degree).
When we use the word doctorado or doctor it means PHD but in the european meaning (a lot of years of researching and a book as a thesis). Here there is not such a thing as people who just research or just study. You do that meanwhile you work, normally takes 10 years.

The post graduate programm at UBA is not an LLM. UBA lawyers do the LLM in other universities because in fact they have the knowledge of an LLM. UBA lawyers are ready to go for the doctorado. When I was going to go to Columbia my Master encourage me to to do not waste my time in an American university and to do the doctorado in Germany. He called Claus Roxin. I studied german for 3 years until I changed my life plan. UBA lawyers who below to a Catedra don´t apply for becas in Germany, we get full a scholarship and our Catedra thief decides it. They believe that the recommendation letters and the whole way US universities manage to accept you is easily cheated. So they rather to accept those young professors who has proved to deserved it. I was planning to study with Roxin but when I travel to Germany the Tsunami happens and Roxin lost his grandchildren and his daughter, so the meeting was canceled.

The UBA specialization was design for lawyers from private universities and border countries universities (The legal level at UBA is high, so they are arrogant enough to do not provide a real UBA degree unless you really deserve it, which means, 6 years of law degree or 10 years of doctorado), essentially, this specialization is exactly the same programm that we studied at CPO but less exigent.

However, UBA lawyers who works at the Court, needs of LLM because they pay about 20% extra for having it and another 30% for doctorado, so they just pay at a private university to get it no matter what.

Universidad de Palermo has a good LLM program wich is directed by a Roberto Saba. Lawyers who wants to apply to Yale without going to the Full Bright Comission go there (Every US university has a former student here and he is the one who decides who is going to be accepted and who doesn´t, Saba is Yale´s, Bovino is Columbia´s, Beloff is Harvard´s, etc).

With an argentinian law degree you apply for master, with your master you can apply for the bar´s examination. I moved to NYC last year planning to stay in long terms so I found that out.

Regards

 

[Alilou]

A fun little anecdote....

I decided to try to enroll in the UBA last year. It was impossible to really figure out where to start. I managed to get all the documents for this year. I went to the Min. de Educacion. My high school diploma was rejected because it didn't have a sticker seal on it... it didn't come with one. I asked my high school if they could do that. They of course said no. The min. de educacion says I have to get a letter from my high school stating the reasons as to why they can't put a sticker on my diploma, then get it notarized, apostilled, translated, and certified. I'm considering making a sticker seal myself and just putting it on my diploma. My transcript was rejected because the first two pages are switched. If we just change the order, the stamps won't match up correctly so they won't be valid. I was told I'd have to start the process all over again... starting with asking for another official transcript (since this one already has mismatched stamps). UBA is a total joke. I actually already studied at UBA for a semester (through FLACSO), taking direct enrollment classes and actually passed all my classes. And I have a college degree. But my high school transcript doesn't have a sticker and the state of california mis-stapled my transcript. SO I'm apparently unqualified to enter in the UBA. I wouldn't bother with UBA unless you are married to an Argentine who will never leave Argentina and are thus quite literally stuck here forever more and can't afford a private school or no private school has the program you are interested in. The difficulties in enrollment are just foreshadowing for what UBA is like...(it took me 2 weeks to find my first class at UBA... why? because i got to class on time. the third week i sat in the class room for over an hour after class started before a man walked in casually smoking... i asked him about the class... turns out... he was the prof... a hour late... the students strolled in afterwards.... or how about this? an argentine friend of mine completed the cbc before being told that he was not officially enrolled... and thus had to do it all again... he gave up. now he is more successful than any college grad i know).