Argentina 2022 - 2032

[Quilombo]

people need to understand that K criticism isn't automatically a support of JxC or macri. look at the last 20 years of this country and tell me what results and progress you see. and then tell me what the common denominator is.

I don't understand why people can't get this through their heads. Just because I loathe the Ks and Peronism doesn't mean I want Particia Bullrich to be president (I wonder if Victoria Donda would denounce me for the nickname I use for Bullrich, or agree with me?), it just means we see what a disaster it has been for Argentina.

Between 1983 and 2022, 39 years, Peronists have governed for 27 vs. a collective 12 for non-Peronists. Fernando de la Rúa also inherited Menem's disaster, so 2001 gets credited to the Peronists too.

The definition of insanity is electing Peronists over and over again expecting a different result, we know what it's like while they're in power. Hell, the minimum wage was higher under Macri than it is now under Alberto despite him being allegedly "del pueblo".

But I digress, returning to the topic at hand, while Argentina has unlimited potential, it is squandered, and I'm not optimistic that anyone, whether K/Federal Peronist/JxC/FIT-U/Libertarians can fix it because it would require a fundamental change in domestic and international policy. Because of this, countries like Bolivia and Brazil will eat our lunch.

Argentina has human capital for the knowledge economy which it could exploit, but it doesn't because so many people increasingly work en negro abroad, with Argentina seeing limited benefits from this. As long as the blue, higher taxes for people who freelancer/are self employed than employees, and no credit exist for this sector you're just going to people pesifying their living expenses while never actually reinvesting in to the broader economy.

So, based on all of this, I'm not optimistic or pessimistic, I just think things will chug along being the quilomobo of a country/economy it is while the rich and politicians reap the benefits of the average person's labor.

 

[Reply Guy]

I don't know about you guys but I'm buying pesos. This ship is turning around!

I'm not suggesting to buy pesos as the government will always finance themselves with money printing. I see assets in Argentina becoming more valuable over the next 10 to 15 years mostly due to food, energy and demographics trends.

My bigger question is if others here see the global macro environment putting Argentina in a better position during that time period.

No one likes the politicians here. There are a million political threads. Milei, Cristina, Macri, none of them are going to improve Argentina even if you believe one is slightly better than the other.

 

[bdk1]

Coming from a tech perspective -- I think latin america's timezone and cultural similarities to the USA, Mexico, (and Brazil, as a large market) make remote work a potential economic game changer. There's even timezone overlap with Europe.

I'm naive about the relative market sizes of tech and something like shale oil or manufacturing, but I include other skilled professions in addition to tech.

However, I have seen and expect to see more US companies outsourcing software development to latin america instead of India or europe. The labor rates are still good and Argentinians are absolutely as capable as my peers in the U.S. In Colombia, the phenomenon of software developers working remotely has produced other industries, like cafes, that cater to the market. If remote work becomes standard in the U.S., and infrastructure exists to support it, who cares if the developer behind the slack icon is based in Ohio or Cordoba so long as they work the same hours, speak english, and are talented.

Maybe doctors, lawyers, accountants, musicians, personal assistants, academics, and other skilled professions could render opinions remotely (US regulations, of course, need to be considered). America is already benefiting from skilled labor in the form of immigration, but perhaps remote work could enable the same dynamics without the brain drain -- such that skilled workers can stay here with their families. Of course, if they have experience in the U.S. they might decide to move there, but remote work could offer a new alternative.

As somebody who works remotely, I really can't emphasize enough how important the time zone is.

I couldn't agree more, and this is not just for tech positions. At my company, we've been consistently replacing every single person who leaves any position with someone based in Argentina. And in many cases, they are even doing a much better job than the person they replaced, who was based in a 1st world country and cost twice as much. At the same time, they are making really good money for Argentine standards so everyone's super happy.

I live in Europe most of the year and I see many people in the most expensive countries (e.g. Switzerland) being against remote work, because they are afraid their jobs will be outsourced somewhere with a lower COL. But it will soon become very difficult to justify hiring locally... How much more value can someone add to justify 3x, 5x or even (as in Switzerland) 10x the cost?

I guess people in countries that speak niche languages are in a better position: people who speak Dutch, Swedish, Finnish, etc. will always be competitive because it's hard to fill positions that require these languages, precisely because there aren't that many speakers worldwide. But for any office-based position that requires only English, Spanish, or French... It's really difficult to justify not outsourcing it elsewhere.

I'm happy Argentineans are finally having better access to the 1st world job market, especially for those who aren't lucky enough to have an EU passport.

 

[americas]

I couldn't agree more, and this is not just for tech positions. At my company, we've been consistently replacing every single person who leaves any position with someone based in Argentina. And in many cases, they are even doing a much better job than the person they replaced, who was based in a 1st world country and cost twice as much. At the same time, they are making really good money for Argentine standards so everyone's super happy.

I live in Europe most of the year and I see many people in the most expensive countries (e.g. Switzerland) being against remote work, because they are afraid their jobs will be outsourced somewhere with a lower COL. But it will soon become very difficult to justify hiring locally... How much more value can someone add to justify 3x, 5x or even (as in Switzerland) 10x the cost?

I guess people in countries that speak niche languages are in a better position: people who speak Dutch, Swedish, Finnish, etc. will always be competitive because it's hard to fill positions that require these languages, precisely because there aren't that many speakers worldwide. But for any office-based position that requires only English, Spanish, or French... It's really difficult to justify not outsourcing it elsewhere.

I'm happy Argentineans are finally having better access to the 1st world job market, especially for those who aren't lucky enough to have an EU passport.

Nice to hear that! How do you navigate taxes and employment law? Are these people contractors or do you have an office here? Or "in black"?

Are there any giant surprising holes in the plan? For example, when I first naively decided to order winter jackets from REI as a cheap gift people here, and discovered that the import tax would basically double the cost of the jackets -- I learned that my great planhad a giant surprising hole.

I'm interested in building a team here, but I need to sort out my own affairs (visa, taxes, etc.), first.

 

[Redpossum]

Between 1983 and 2022, 39 years, Peronists have governed for 27 vs. a collective 12 for non-Peronists. Fernando de la Rúa also inherited Menem's disaster, so 2001 gets credited to the Peronists too.

Hang on, let me get this right, you are calling MENEM a Peronist?!?

 

[bdk1]

Nice to hear that! How do you navigate taxes and employment law? Are these people contractors or do you have an office here? Or "in black"?

Are there any giant surprising holes in the plan? For example, when I first naively decided to order winter jackets from REI as a cheap gift people here, and discovered that the import tax would basically double the cost of the jackets -- I learned that my great planhad a giant surprising hole.

I'm interested in building a team here, but I need to sort out my own affairs (visa, taxes, etc.), first.

Long story short, the easiest way is to just pay them via Azimo/Western Union/etc. and have them invoice your foreign company as monotributistas. They get ARS, not USD (at a near-blue exchange rate), so they are not required to exchange them at official rates at the "mercado común de cambios" (which would be the case if they got actual USD). Everything is straightforward, legal, and everyone is happy.

 

[FrankPintor]

Long story short, the easiest way is to just pay them via Azimo/Western Union/etc. and have them invoice your foreign company as monotributistas. They get ARS, not USD (at a near-blue exchange rate), so they are not required to exchange them at official rates at the "mercado común de cambios" (which would be the case if they got actual USD). Everything is straightforward, legal, and everyone is happy.

Do you have any references for 'not required to exchange them at official rates at the "mercado común de cambios"'? My understanding was that foreign earnings have to be pesified at the official rate (and within a short time, 5 days, I believe).

 

[bdk1]

Do you have any references for 'not required to exchange them at official rates at the "mercado común de cambios"'? My understanding was that foreign earnings have to be pesified at the official rate (and within a short time, 5 days, I believe).

As usual in Argentina, there's no transparent sources to point at, unfortunately. You need to ask local contadores until you find the answer that you're looking for, because most of them don't know and (also very common in Argentina) instead of saying "I don't know, I've never worked with such a case" they will give you an opinion anyway, which will of course be incorrect. All I can do is speak from my co-workers' experience.

That said, I think the key here is they are not being paid in foreign currency. When you receive your earnings via a service such as Azimo or WU on your Argentinean bank account, you are receiving pesos. There's no foreign currency to pesify. In other words, if the company sends €1K via Azimo, Azimo keeps the €1K and sends ARS 202K. They don't send EUR.

 

[FrankPintor]

As usual in Argentina, there's no transparent sources to point at, unfortunately. You need to ask local contadores until you find the answer that you're looking for, because most of them don't know and (also very common in Argentina) instead of saying "I don't know, I've never worked with such a case" they will give you an opinion anyway, which will of course be incorrect. All I can do is speak from my co-workers' experience.

That said, I think the key here is they are not being paid in foreign currency. When you receive your earnings via a service such as Azimo or WU on your Argentinean bank account, you are receiving pesos. There's no foreign currency to pesify. In other words, if the company sends €1K via Azimo, Azimo keeps the €1K and sends ARS 202K. They don't send EUR.

Ok, I get it. The actual amount you charge the foreign company will be on the invoice you need to submit at some point to AFIP as a monotributista, this should then be a peso amount?

 

[BeraRane]

. Look at the last 20 years of this country and tell me what results and progress you see. and then tell me what the common denominator is.

Right wing free marketeers screw up the economy, Peronists come in and turn it around, right wing free marketeers come in and destroy everything again, Peronists come in and turn it around again...

sits back and opens the malbec...