Argentina Buying 30-Year-Old Israeli Fighter Jets

[GS_Dirtboy]

I don't think that really matters, as Chile and certainly not Brazil represents any threat to Argentina.

Friends and enemies change places quickly.

 

[camberiu]

Friends and enemies change places quickly.

Argentina would have to make that change. Ask your wive if most Brazilian could stomach or even conceive our country doing an Argentine land grab. Brazilians have a huge list of flaws and short comings, but international expansionism and belligerence are not some of them. We are a very non-confrontational country on the international stage, sometimes up to a fault.

 

[ajoknoblauch]

Seems new, possibly one of our Campora friends?

If so, he/she is likely lying about his/her Belgrano location.

 

[wild_horses]

Sorry, disagree. We used the Kfir in the US Navy to simulate the Mig 23. Could accelerate quickly but couldn't turn. A Kfir with a dial cockpit and a Kfir with a glass cockpit fight the same - they have the same airframe. They've probably lightened it a bit and might have added canards, fences, etc. BVR helps some but the Grippen and the F-16 are both BVR. Once WVR the tide turns quickly against the Kfir.

I flew the Kfir in a fam tour at Oceana. Had 10 flights. Also, routinely fought against F-16's and 5 flights against Grippens flying Hornets (C model). Money hands down on the Kfir pilot getting killed.

Hi,

So you actually flew them? COOL! But do not you think that now, in modern warfare, a dogfight is very unlikely? I mean if, lets say, one Chilean F-16 comes within 50 km of a Kfir Block 60 equipped with AESA whitch has an antena of 512 module t/r (the RAPTOR has a 1500 module t/r, the most powerfull AESA transmitter-receiver) and Python V plus BVR cappability, who has more chances of being shotdown?

Cheers!

 

[camberiu]

Hi,

So you actually flew them? COOL! But do not you think that now, in modern warfare, a dogfight is very unlikely? I mean if, lets say, one Chilean F-16 comes within 50 km of a Kfir Block 60 equipped with AESA whitch has an antena of 512 module t/r (the RAPTOR has a 1500 module t/r, the most powerfull AESA transmitter-receiver) and Python V plus BVR cappability, who has more chances of being shotdown?

Cheers!

Promise and Reality: Beyond Visual Range (BVR) Air-To-Air Combat
by
Lt Col Patrick Higby, USAF
Air War College Seminar 7
325 Chennault Circle
Maxwell AFB/AL/36112


From the article:
"The most overlooked aspect of BVR implementation, however, was the persistent
technological shortfall in identifying an enemy at long ranges. Identification Friend or
Foe (IFF) technology is still not considered reliable today,xi as evidenced by the
requirement for identification by other systems, such as the Airborne Warning and
Control System (AWACS).
Not surprisingly, the IFF shortfall created a concern about fratricide, leading to extreme
constraints on the employment of BVR capabilities. Nevertheless, the US continued to
pay a significant premium to procure and operate BVR-capable systems, although the
capability was generally not useable in practice."

 

[GS_Dirtboy]

Ask your wive if most Brazilian could stomach or even conceive our country doing an Argentine land grab.

I asked her. She said they would be very satisfied just kicking the sh*t out of Argentina in the World Cup. B)

 

[Hybrid Ambassador]

Argentina has no inmmediate threat from its neighbours any time soon. So spending the non-available mullah on purchasing somebody else's problematic used jet fighter is outragious. Unlike the tiny Japan the size of 1/2 the size of Chile but being bullied every day from the red china. Thus needing to enforce its military capability. We can never ever rely on being under the Nuke ambrella of uncle Sam.
====================================================================================================
Facing the expanding Chinese air power over the East China Sea, the Japanese defense ministry plans to purchase a total number of 42 Lockheed Martin F-35 fighters from the United States to defend the disputed Diaoyutai islands (called Senkaku in Japan and Diaoyu in China), according to the Tokyo-based business daily Nikkei.

The Japan Air Self-Defense Force (JASDF) decided to purchase the fifth generation stealth fighters to replace its older F-4 Phantom II fighters. In addition to 60 F-4 fighters, the JASDF also operates 200 F-15J and 90 F-2 fighters, the paper said.

The new F-35 fighters are likely to coordinate with F-2s in potential missions to attack the naval and ground forces of the People's Liberation Army, while the F-15J would take care of Chinese fighters in the sky.

The Japanese defense ministry is also considering upgrading the F-15J fighters under its Mid-term Defense Program. Around 100 of the aircraft's radar systems are not able to be modified, and Tokyo plans to purchase additional F-35s to replace them. This will eventually allow Japan to have at least 142 F-35 stealth fighters. However, the defense ministry will first have to discuss its plans with the finance ministry as the price of a single F-35 can be as high as US$150 million.

Under the new Mid-term Defense Program, the Japanese defense ministry also discussed the possibility of designing or purchasing fighters which can be used to succeed F-2 multirole fighters. The Nikkei reported that Japan is likely to design this new fighter with other nation in a similar way to the United States and its F-35. Meanwhile, the Tokyo-based Kyodo News said that Japan will begin the purchase of its first six F-35 fighters from the United States as early as this March.

For the next five years, Japan will continue its purchase of F-35s and eventually increase the number to 42. In addition to introducing advanced fighters from the United States, the Japanese defense ministry also confirmed that it will spend US$190,000 to modify its three Osumi-class tank landing ships. After the modification, assault amphibious vehicles such as the AAV7 and new aircraft like MV-22 Osprey tiltrotor aircraft can both be launched from those ships for amphibious warfare over the disputed islands in the East China Sea.

"We can never overlook China's repeated entries into our territorial waters. In addition to diplomatic efforts, we will cooperate with the Coast Guard to securely defend our territory and waters around the Senkaku islands," said Itsunori Onodera, the Japanese defense minister, during his inspection of the new year exercise held by the airbourne troops of the Japan Ground Self-Defense Force at Narashino in Chiba prefecture on Jan. 12.
http://www.google.com/search?q=replaced+fighter+jets+of+japan+self+defense+army&nord=1&rlz=1C2SNNT_enUS377&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=k7oxU9zVIsfFoASRsIGABw&ved=0CGIQsAQ&biw=1061&bih=599

 

[GS_Dirtboy]

Hi,

So you actually flew them? COOL! But do not you think that now, in modern warfare, a dogfight is very unlikely? I mean if, lets say, one Chilean F-16 comes within 50 km of a Kfir Block 60 equipped with AESA whitch has an antena of 512 module t/r (the RAPTOR has a 1500 module t/r, the most powerfull AESA transmitter-receiver) and Python V plus BVR cappability, who has more chances of being shotdown?

Cheers!

They've been saying dog-fighting has been over for 50 years now. Hahahaha! That keeps being disproved. Not sure how that will play out with drones. The Python is a formidable AAM but can be defeated. In reality, there are not many instances in real life where engagements occur BVR. The real power of the Python is that it can be launched at an enemy from almost all angles-off. But, at close range it is more easily defeatable. In most of the scenarios I can think of the F-16 or Grippen pilot would pull the fight in close and at that point the only real option for the Kfir pilot is to disengage 180-out and try to get home.

 

[camberiu]

In most of the scenarios I can think of the F-16 or Grippen pilot would pull the fight in close and at that point the only real option for the Kfir pilot is to disengage 180-out and try to get home.

Both Brazil and Chile are the only countries in Latin America equipped with AEW platforms. That factor alone makes any discussion about plane X vs. plane Y backed up by an AEW platform mute. If you you are going against an opponent that has an AEW platform and you don't, you are already dead. It is like an almost blind guy trying to get into a knife fight with another guy who has 20/20 vision and faster reflexes. I don't care how big and sharp the blind guy's knife is, in the end he will lose.

Chile's Phalcon AEW

Brazil's EMBRAER R-99 AEW

 

[ARbound]

Japan definitely has reason to want fighters and If I lived in Tokyo instead of BA I'd want my tax Yen to be used towards new jets because of the reality of a neighborhood conflict possibly emerging. Yet, as I have said and many others too, this just in't the case in Argentina. The biggest threat Argentina has is the damn US Embassy giving the electing to Massa next year lol.

On a less serious note, RE: F-35's, I know there's been a lot of push back on them (I'm not even touching whether we need them or not) but for anyone who has got the chance to see one in person or better yet in flight they are a thing of beauty. I got to seem two of them when flying on the way to the West Coast, can't remember which place I was headed to, was a few years ago, and I was lucky enough to be uninterested in the movie and looking out the window (why I always take the window seat, especially when flying in to LGA, shitty airport, wonderful views) and saw two of them, they leveled out nice enough to match our speed and were close enough you could see the pilot.

Never got to fly any military aircraft, only civilian ones, but some fighters mentioned are on my list along with the BUFF in all it's glory, which I was lucky enough to tour as a kid/teen.