Argentina Me Too Movement

[Ries]

Interesting how every commenter except Jan is a threatened man. I believe the women, myself, as, for my entire 60 odd years on the planet, I have seen this kind of thing happen, over and over again, and the men always get away with it. For 10,000 years or so...

 

[semigoodlookin]

Interesting how every commenter except Jan is a threatened man. I believe the women, myself, as, for my entire 60 odd years on the planet, I have seen this kind of thing happen, over and over again, and the men always get away with it. For 10,000 years or so...

I am unsurprised to see a strawman enter this debate. Disagreeing parties simply must be threatened men. So what's the implication with that comment, that all men who have commented on this thread are secret rapists so must feel threatened? I am a man and have never raped anyone, so under what circumstance would I feel threatened aside from seeing the potential for false accustation to ruin my life? Unfortunately, people seem to want men to be threatened, perhaps becuase they think they are winning some cultural battle. I repeat, this will bring fantastic rewards for the MeToo movement in the short term, but will have disastrous effects for women in the long term.

In fact, I could go as far as to say I don't care about the semantics of the case and that the rape or lack thereof is unimportant to me. She could have said he stole from her years go, if the result was a trial before media, I would be against it. Again, I think there has been enough smoke in this case to suggest fire, so my opinion is he did it. That's the problem though, this guilt is presumed and based on opinion, as is everyone's. My problem with this is the manipulative media coverage, the manipulative reporting of the crime by the victim, and the lack of respect for the neccesary innocent until proven guilty foundation of law.

Also, when dealing with a debate as complex as this, nuance is important. Saying something like "men always get away with it" is a poor generalization that has no place in a conversation where one might be attempting to solve a problem. Obviously men do not always get away with it, heck I personally knew a man convicted of rape. Words are important in these debates, so if you believe men always get away with it, I would suggest you cite some sources.

 

[Ries]

you are a woman, then?
If you start asking around, virtually every woman you know or are related to will have stories about being sexually harrassed, discriminated against, and, a very large percentage of the time, assaulted or raped. This is really really common. But, again, all of the commenters on this thread, lamenting the current very slight improvement in things for women, are MEN.

So- my sources would be my mother, my wife, and virtually all of my women friends.

 

[GMXam]

Anyone who has been sexually violated, regardless of their gender, has the fear of not being believed or taken seriously. They also have raised the series of questions frequently seen in comments on articles, forums (like this one), etc., to themselves prior to everyone feeling like they have to have their say about what happened. Sure, you’re going to have some who try to exploit the system, like in any system with rules or law. The question is whether the exploited outnumber those that are justified cases.

Another issue that the Me Too movement attempts to address is cases where the victim in question is perceived by society as having “asked for it” or “encouraged it” or “put themselves at risk”. If you’ve never had to work with victims of sexual violence (regardless of gender), you may be isolated from knowing how often these cases occur. One could argue that these victims are chosen specifically because society is likely to not believe them.

In any case, I’ve yet to see a comment that actually addresses trying to fix the underlying problems of sexual violence in this thread. Let’s just post something shocking and emotion-invoking and grab some popcorn. It’s obvious that many of the posters on this thread (Ries excluded) have not had any type of personal exposure to anyone who has experienced sexual violence. Let’s just be glad that you and the ones you love haven’t.

 

[sergio]

I don't see any way how trial by media can be good. Of course, as soon as an accusation as grave as this is made, it tugs at your sympathy and some automatically associate this sympathy with guilt. It's a dangerous game getting into a system where guilt is presumed and not innocence. Our current legal system already makes mistakes and convicts wrongly on occaision, wait what will happen if we remove the presumption of innocence?

As for my personal opinion, I think he probably did it. Then again, psychologicially I probably would when I see a woman crying on national TV saying someone raped her. Again, it appeals to our sympathy. Tears are not proof of guilt sadly. Also, thinking he probably did it is simply not enough and that is what all these women championing the case also believe. The only certainty comes from the parties involved: him and her.

For the mobilaztion of women we are seeing, I fear this tactic currently being pursued by the MeToo movement will serve women well in the short term but will have devastating effects on them in the long term.

One of the women who testified against Kavanaugh (nominated for the US Supreme Court) subsequently recanted -- said that she had invented what she said. She had not witnessed any attempted rape. She admitted she lied but meanwhile her word was taken seriously.

 

[sergio]

Of course sexual violence is inexcusable but it's inexcusable to destroy someone's life without evidence -- and the presumption of GUILT which is common now in the US is undermining the fundamental democratic concept of innocence until proven guilty. Given the social environment that exists in countries like the US and that is emerging in Argentina, evryone has to be very careful not to be alone with someone in the workplace, not to be perceived as even intimating something sexual. Teachers have to be especially careful never to touch a student, even if it is a friendly pat on the shoulders and never to be alone with a student in the classroom because the mere accusation can destroy someone - no matter that the accused may be totally innocent.

 

[semigoodlookin]

you are a woman, then?
If you start asking around, virtually every woman you know or are related to will have stories about being sexually harrassed, discriminated against, and, a very large percentage of the time, assaulted or raped. This is really really common. But, again, all of the commenters on this thread, lamenting the current very slight improvement in things for women, are MEN.

So- my sources would be my mother, my wife, and virtually all of my women friends.

I fear that I have hit a wall as it seems you didn't really read my post. If you had, the part where I said I am a man should have evidently answered your first question.

Everything you have wrote above is accurate. There are women who have been sexually harassed and mistreated for being women (discrimination is the wrong word as it suggests discrimination itself is inherently wrong, whcih it isn't). And indeed, there are a large percentage who have been raped and assualted and a significant portion who have their claims laughed at and dismissed. That's not what I am debating.

Again, as you missed it the first time. My contention is that you said men always get away with it. Words are important when tackling an important subject that aims to improve culture. If you believe men ALWAYS get away with it, cite the sources. I don't think I really need to cite sources of prison and conviction statistics that show men do not ALWAYS get away with it. This says nothing of whether too many get away with it, which certainly happens.

Saying you "believe the women" is simply not enough, not least because there could be someone with more ability to decide these things (within the legal system) who could just "believe the man". I guess unfortunately for the public kangeroo court, crimes are not convicted in that way, or fortunately if you view it from a legal standpoint. We could be talking about theft and it would be the same.

Admittedly we are getting a little beyond the case at hand because there seems to be enough evidence to sugges this actor is guilty. If he is, there is no place he should be able to live comfortably again in my opinion. My problem is the trial by media.

 

[semigoodlookin]

Anyone who has been sexually violated, regardless of their gender, has the fear of not being believed or taken seriously. They also have raised the series of questions frequently seen in comments on articles, forums (like this one), etc., to themselves prior to everyone feeling like they have to have their say about what happened. Sure, you’re going to have some who try to exploit the system, like in any system with rules or law. The question is whether the exploited outnumber those that are justified cases.

Of course, but trial by media and a kangeroo court is not someone being exploited and wrongly convicted, it is deciding en masse that someone is guilty based on opinion. Also, they obviously do not outweigh the justified cases, but that does not mean it is correct to drag someone down with your movement as it seeks efficiency.

Another issue that the Me Too movement attempts to address is cases where the victim in question is perceived by society as having “asked for it” or “encouraged it” or “put themselves at risk”. If you’ve never had to work with victims of sexual violence (regardless of gender), you may be isolated from knowing how often these cases occur. One could argue that these victims are chosen specifically because society is likely to not believe them.

In any case, I’ve yet to see a comment that actually addresses trying to fix the underlying problems of sexual violence in this thread. Let’s just post something shocking and emotion-invoking and grab some popcorn. It’s obvious that many of the posters on this thread (Ries excluded) have not had any type of personal exposure to anyone who has experienced sexual violence. Let’s just be glad that you and the ones you love haven’t.

A few things here.

No-one has said anything particulalry shocking in this thread. You seem to think they have, so point me to the relevant text.
The whole thing is emotion evoking, it's suspected rape and a series of sexual assaults. Silence at the risk of evoking emotions is not a place we want to be going to otherwise this or any other public forum would be dead within a month.
Without delving into my life story, who's to say I have had no exposure to sexual violence? I have and I am a man... do the math. So that means I don't have to be glad, but I can be realistic with more perspective on the situation than most.

Why does someone have to come up with a solution to a problem to debate it? These are complex issues, so obviously a quick solution is not readily available. However, saying what is not a great solution is much easier so we should be working towards a something that works while weeding out the incorrect methods. That's what general discourse helps to do without the need for everyone chipping in with their own solution for the problem.

 

[GMXam]

Of course, but trial by media and a kangeroo court is not someone being exploited and wrongly convicted, it is deciding en masse that someone is guilty based on opinion. Also, they obviously do not outweigh the justified cases, but that does not mean it is correct to drag someone down with your movement as it seeks efficiency.



A few things here.

No-one has said anything particulalry shocking in this thread. You seem to think they have, so point me to the relevant text.
The whole thing is emotion evoking, it's suspected rape and a series of sexual assaults. Silence at the risk of evoking emotions is not a place we want to be going to otherwise this or any other public forum would be dead within a month.
Without delving into my life story, who's to say I have had no exposure to sexual violence? I have and I am a man... do the math. So that means I don't have to be glad, but I can be realistic with more perspective on the situation than most.

Why does someone have to come up with a solution to a problem to debate it? These are complex issues, so obviously a quick solution is not readily available. However, saying what is not a great solution is much easier so we should be working towards a something that works while weeding out the incorrect methods. That's what general discourse helps to do without the need for everyone chipping in with their own solution for the problem.

Nothing particularly shocking was actually posted, but some reactions to the original post (see any of the above) appear to have a shocked reaction to the original posted linked content and its repercussions.

Look man, I'm not in favor of condemning the innocent, but I'm also not in favor of the psychological damage incurred by a victim not being believed by authorities who have the power to question. If someone says no or even appears as though they don't want to have sex with you, keep your pants zipped. Simple. If someone seems like they might be trouble for you during or after sex, keep your pants zipped. Simple.

I am also not in favor of trial by media. However, that's not the era we live in. Case in point...you guys are debating the perceived potential innocence of this person. It's human to do this. Everyone's trying to make sense of it.

Regarding debating for the sake of debating, have fun with that. I simply was giving my two cents from an obviously different perspective than yours.

 

[Ceviche]

Calm down, GX Ma'am.