Argentinas loss makes us introspective

[ktraceysf]

Hhhmmm SaraSara- Argentines are not racist.
I'm from San Francisco and we are hyperly sensitive to anything related to race.(to a fault) So while I may not know the Argentine defination to racism I can I assure you that Argetntines are insensitive to race.
1. There is a bakery nearby our apt.(Palermo) that sells cupcakes called 'negritos' chocolate cupcakes with human faces that are all brown and exaggerated lips.
2. We recently met with a biracial family, located in Belgrano, mom is chinese american. they told of us a story, where a caterer was told that the party was for their son, and the caterer used their fingers to slant their eyes and said 'Oh is he like this' Imitating a chinese facial expression.
So while the Argentines may not be racist....I do think they are insensative to other races.
-k
http://jackfamilyinba.wordpress.com/

 

[citygirl]

I'm of mixed feelings about this. I have found Argentines very blunt about their language (ie - calling the supermarkets "chinos" or any darker skinner people negro/a). As a North American - it just sounds wrong to me but I'm not sure it's always meant that way. They're blunt to a level that I'm just not comfortable with culturally but that doesn't make it inherently wrong - just different.

However, I think it's way too optimistic to say there is no racism here. It exists everywhere and Argentina is no exception. Although here I find it to be directed more towards Bolivans, Paragayans, etc.

 

[perry]

I'm of mixed feelings about this. I have found Argentines very blunt about their language (ie - calling the supermarkets "chinos" or any darker skinner people negro/a). As a North American - it just sounds wrong to me but I'm not sure it's always meant that way. They're blunt to a level that I'm just not comfortable with culturally but that doesn't make it inherently wrong - just different.

However, I think it's way too optimistic to say there is no racism here. It exists everywhere and Argentina is no exception. Although here I find it to be directed more towards Bolivans, Paragayans, etc.

Good post Citygirl and I believe that the bluntness here is what people are misintepreting as overt rascism . Argentinians are very blunt in regards to personal appearance and will say comments that are no longer pc in your home country . Does this translate to anything much stronger 99 percent of the time it does not and I sure we will never see the scenes of race riots prevalent in Paris France, Los Angeles USA , Kosovo, Bosnia , Croatia etc etc etc.......

 

[AlexfromLA]

One of my best friends is Argentinian. About a year ago he married a girl from Paraguay. He is 27 and she is 23. She immigrated to Argentina as a little girl. They are a great couple that love each other very much. His family damn near disowned him. His mother was so mad at him that she wouldn't even allow his wife to go to her home.

I have seen the girl cry in front of him because of the things his family says to her. The call her a " negra de mierda ", make fun of her for being a poor Paraguayan girl etc. And these are all things they say in front of me as though it is socially acceptable to speak this way about someone. I am usually so shocked that I feel I have been transported to the deep American south of the 1950's before the civil rights movement. I mean it's really that bad.

The girl is very sweet, kind and humble as is my friend and they don't deserve this at all. But for some reason in this culture it is okay to treat people like that.

I went to a property owners meeting a few weeks ago where we were deciding on hiring a new encargado. One of the other property owners said straight out that we should not hire a Paraguayan and should only look at Argentinian candidates because Paraguayans are thieves and lazy. Again I was floored. This just wouldn't fly in the US, but here it seems to be common place.

I could go on and on with more examples. But there really is no need. It is what it is, but it pisses me off nonetheless. And like it or not I will post my opinions regarding this whenever I think it's relevant.

 

[Gaucho Sam]

I'd like to add 'and gringos' onto the end of Citygirl's last post. I got punched in the face a couple of months ago for no other reason than I have blond hair and pale skin, and the guy was drunk. It almost happened again yesterday afternoon half a block from my front door, because a couple of drunks thought I was German (I was wearing my Argentina shirt yet they still had a go at me!).

I'd also say, without wanting to cause offence to anyone, least of all Alex, that I recognise in some ways what he says in this thread, and think he might've had a slightly more sympathetic public had he not used 'you' quite so frequently in his first post - that to me had the effect of unintentionally (I believe) aiming the post at Pericles as author of the OP.

I'd certainly agree that 'Argentines' aren't a race, any more than the English people are - we're all mongrels made up of various waves of immigration, and of course the original inhabitants on this country weren't one single race either.

As far as things like 'negritos' and 'chinos' are concerned, I think that's cultural and it's to do with the differences in the languages as well (and 'negro' as a nickname is one of many because no-one here is without a nickname). In the UK we also say we're 'going to the Chinese' - exactly the same words - just in a different context; if you say it in English it means you're going to a Chinese restaurant.

As for the football, I'm amazed at the number of people who don't think Maradona should go. I'm glad he didn't leave right after the game - wish (for Argentina) that Pekerman had taken more time to consider four years ago - but it's been shown quite emphatically that he's not a football manager, any more than Jonás Gutiérrez is a right back.

And Messi didn't have a poor game (can't remember who said that on page 1). He was forced very deep because someone fielded a midfield without any players capable of creating, so going deep was the only way Messi could get the ball since Maxi and Di María both legged it forward as soon as a German attack broke up. Messi gets the ball late and deep, and Germany have already got men on everyone ahead of him. Doesn't leave him a lot of options. He evaded plenty of tackles, and passed it better than anyone in an Argentine shirt.

I really hope, as someone who's here to write about the country's football and loved finally seeing him accepted when the World Cup started, that the press don't slip back into bating him every time he fails to score a hat trick.

 

[SaraSara]

Argentines have no problems with race, but are paranoid on the subject of CLASS. I would bet that the Paraguayan girl in Alex's story was abused because she was poor, not because of her skin color.

The locals are very blunt and call Jews "rusos", Spaniards "gaitas", Bolivians "bolitas", and Italians "tanos" to their faces. Those words have become almost nicknames, and no one seems to take offense.

I find the US pretense of being racially blind puzzling: blacks call us whites, but demand to be addressed in the the politically-correct designation du jour. Once it was Afros, then Negroes, now it is African-American. But they don't call us European-Americans, they just call us whites. And among themselves, blacks refer to each other as blacks. Period. It is so much simpler.

I don't know anything about Paraguayans but I do know that many people hesitate to hire Peruvian help because they might have friends or relatives in the powerful Peruvian drug mafias controlling some of the villas. About half of the villeros interviewed in TV protesting or demanding something are not Argentine-born - it's easy to tell them apart by their accent.

Sorry if this post rises blisters in some sensitive skins, but that is my unvarnished opinion. Of course, others are free to dissent.

 

[AlexfromLA]

Actually my comment wasn't in any way directed at pericles. just a general observation.

I have never personally experienced racism here. But I see it and hear it all the time in many different ways. From my experience it is usually the older generations that are the worst. Most of my friends don't utter such nonsense. But whenever you go to their family gatherings and hear their parents talk, you're like " wtf, did he really just say that ? ".

I wouldn't call any of this " racial insensitivity " I'd call it being a retard and not knowing how to express yourself in socially acceptable terms in the 21st century at the very least and being an outright racist at the very worst.

These are all remnants of the colonial caste system put into place during and after the Spanish Conquest. It is very well documented and in all honesty it exists in most Latin American countries to some degree. But I have never seen it used so overtly as I have here. This is the 21st Century and there is no place in the civilized world for this kind of backwards third world mentality.

 

[perry]

Rascism is a appalling and I have seen this in Buenos Aires but I also know that it rarely translate into violence prevalent in other societies. I grew up in Australia and back in the 1960s being of greek background you were called a wog and it was not certainly a term of endearment . That changed in the 1980s when greeks and italians became cool and the use of the word wog a degrogatory term was reclaimed by the same groups and became hip .

The problems of Buenos Aires is the poverty and the misery surrounding this . The villa miserias are growing and of course this can bring huge social problems in the coming years.

We must not judge others for being poor and blame them for their plight . Being born in a villa miseria gives you very little chance of progress as a villa address denies employment to most creating a cycle of unemployed people who have to irk their living being cartoneros or stealing . Drugs are also a huge problem that is growing and must be seriously addressed if we wish to live in a peaceful city.

 

[gouchobob]

I think it's fair to say that outsiders see Argentina as an arrogant country, like Marodonna referring to one of the German players as a ball boy. It's not a surprise when they lose badly that it's now being thrown back in their faces. A good summary of all the stereotypes concerning Argentina culture (many not very complementary) are in the link below, most of which I can see as at least partially true.

http://www.atozworldculture.com/a-z_culture_sample_content.asp?nid=20.08&cid=5&home=a-z_culture_login.asp

 

[perry]

Good link Gouchobob and the stereotypes ring true in many cases. My favourite saying is this one . I forgot now who said it.

The human ego is the little argentine in us all.....