Argentine re-immigration

[gouchobob]

Minimum wage and working condition laws don't mean much when nearly half the work force is employed in the informal economy with much lower wages and no regulation of working conditions.

Even in countries like Spain with very high unemployment most people are still working, and not many of these people are coming back. Most of the problems here are a direct result of bad government over decades. I doubt that will change anytime soon, Argentinians will continue to immigrate to other countries in search of better opportunities for themselves and their families.

I think the outflow of people from Argentina is pretty steady even today. As Pericles says when you go to migrations there are always people, generally from poorer neighboring countries. However if you look at the stats over the last 10 years there is still a small net migration out of Argentina.

 

[perry]

Minimum wage and working condition laws don't mean much when nearly half the work force is employed in the informal economy with much lower wages and no regulation of working conditions.

Even in countries like Spain with very high unemployment most people are still working, and not many of these people are coming back. Most of the problems here are a direct result of bad government over decades. I doubt that will change anytime soon, Argentinians will continue to immigrate to other countries in search of better opportunities for themselves and their families.

I think the outflow of people from Argentina is pretty steady even today. As Pericles says when you go to migrations there are always people, generally from poorer neighboring countries. However if you look at the stats over the last 10 years there is still a small net migration out of Argentina.

Do you get it Gouchobob Argentinians are not migrating to other countries for better oportunities at the moment.

People employed en blanco in Buenos Aires have fair wages and as stated many times before the highest minimum wage in South America. European wages in many cases are even lower than here when you consider the costs of living are higher . Let me quantify that statement and say that some parts of Europe ie Norway, Finland , Sweden, and most of scandanavia the conditions are better but in Southern Europe they are not.

Illegally employing workers and paying them under the counter is prohibited by Argentinian law and the fines are very high . Implying in your posts that nearly half the workforce is employed in this manner shows ignorance considering that those workers can sue you for huge sums of monies as well as having afip investigate your business. I know many expats who have been sued by their maid for this practise.

 

[citygirl]

I read the original question from gouchobob as saying why would people come to Argentina to ride out the unemployment crisis from a financial standpoint? Wages are quite low here and cost of living is quite high here.

I completely understand why people would return if they have a safety net here (family, friends, etc) that can help them out. But returning to Arg for better financial opportunities? I'm not quite sure that would be logical. Unemployment is high here, cost of living is growing leaps and bounds and there aren't many well-paying jobs here, especially for those that are used to earning a salary in euros or dollars.

I would be interested to see a study what the actual percentage of en negro workers are but at a guess, I would say it is quite high. Most small businesses I know of operate en negro. Yes, you run a huge risk but en blanco is very, very cost-prohibitive.

PS - Argentina doesn't have 4 weeks of mandatory paid vacation. (well, maybe in unions?). For example, my employees receive 14 calendar days a year from years 1-5 (so in essence, 10 working days) + 1 extra day.

 

[gouchobob]

Yes nearly half of the working population is employed under the counter, and the percentage has increased over the years, apparently a lot of people feel its worth the risk. Since most of these jobs are the low pay ones that my be covered by a minimum wage it makes the effectiveness of these laws doubtful. My guess is that if an analysis were done the majority of the people working in blanco wouldn't be impacted by a minimum wage anyway.

 

[gouchobob]

I read the original question from gouchobob as saying why would people come to Argentina to ride out the unemployment crisis from a financial standpoint? Wages are quite low here and cost of living is quite high here.

I completely understand why people would return if they have a safety net here (family, friends, etc) that can help them out. But returning to Arg for better financial opportunities? I'm not quite sure that would be logical. Unemployment is high here, cost of living is growing leaps and bounds and there aren't many well-paying jobs here, especially for those that are used to earning a salary in euros or dollars.

I would be interested to see a study what the actual percentage of en negro workers are but at a guess, I would say it is quite high. Most small businesses I know of operate en negro. Yes, you run a huge risk but en blanco is very, very cost-prohibitive.

PS - Argentina doesn't have 4 weeks of mandatory paid vacation. (well, maybe in unions?). For example, my employees receive 14 calendar days a year from years 1-5 (so in essence, 10 working days) + 1 extra day.

According to the article linked below as of three years ago the percentage is 44%. I doubt this has changed much since.

http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=38136

 

[perry]

As much as I agree that inflation is a huge problem here and the costs of living are very high I do not see any interest at all from middle class argentinians to leave the country.

What I find strange is that noone has ever asked me about emigrating to Australia my place of birth in 5 years of being here. Many here prefer to stay put and thats the truth.

 

[syngirl]

I have many relatives in Europe and Australia who have to work two jobs just to survive and they certainly do not have the holidays that Argentina is famous for . I believe that the USA has 2 weeks paid leave a year and 10 days public holidays while in Argentina its 4 weeks and 21 days public holidays .

The holidays Argentina is famous for??? Whoa whoa whoa, Pericles, I'm sorry but you are misinformed here! Holidays are 2 weeks only -- after 5 years with the same company you go up to 3 weeks, and for 4 weeks of holiday you have to have been working with the same company for 10 years + (although I think some kick it in after 7 or 8).

If you change from one company to another you LOSE your holiday days and get knocked back down to 2 weeks, unless you can convince HR otherwise. 2 weeks is all that they are required to give you for less than 5 years of service for a company.

In my opinion this is why Argentines are so against changing jobs, they don't want to lose their holidays.

Also here it is more unusual to hear of being able to bank days off, whereas in most countries you can bank days of holidays.

Argentina holidays suck. A belgian friend the other day summed it up through the perspective of a European -- 2 weeks of holidays to her was an absolute disrespect -- she expects 4 weeks minimum coming from Europe. She won't get that until she's been with her company for another 8 years....

 

[perry]

As much as European expect 4 weeks holidays and all these benefits that they feel is their natural right their governments are working together to destroy those same rights . Wages are being drastically cut, pensions cut, age of retirement increased and holidays reduced.

Welcome to the New Europe of low wages and zero worker rights. I suggest that you click on the link and see the reality of wages across Europe. Spains minimum wage is just Euro 633 converted in pesos this is only 3134 pesos . Spain has also a huge informal economy of sweat shop workers who are paid much less . If you look at the graph you will be suprised that many countries earn lower wages than Argentina and of course the population is much more indebted with home loans and the like. Portugal is a lousy 433 euros (2144 argentine pesos) a month and many other countries that make up the majority of this land mass earn less than 500 euros or equivalent a month.

http://www.fedee.com/minwage.html

 

[mini]

Thanks for your reply Mark and I know many people here that have a much better lifestyle than Europe and the USA . Propaganda presented as truth by the likes of Gouchobob is laughable.

Although I find your posts quite interesting, I just don't understand why you feel the need to put down Europe/US/Aus in order to make your point.

I have many relatives in Europe and Australia who have to work two jobs just to survive and they certainly do not have the holidays that Argentina is famous for . I believe that the USA has 2 weeks paid leave a year and 10 days public holidays while in Argentina its 4 weeks and 21 days public holidays .

I don't know where you get the idea the standard in Argentina is 4 weeks. It's not. Standard is 2 weeks holiday. When we left Europe my husband had 6 weeks of holiday. We were shocked to find him put back down to 2 weeks. Even though he has been with the same company, down here he is considered a new employee & they start a 2 weeks. Yes! It's supposed to be the SAME company. But not down here.

Also, are you telling me that in Europe you need two family earners but down here somehow everyone can get by with just one person working? I can't believe that.

People of the middle and upper middle classes in Buenos Aires are much less indebted than their US and european counterparts and have more real wealth than those citizens. Over 90 percent of all properties are paid for in cash the first in the world per capita . Many foreigners are absolutely shocked that this is so as they have this image of Argentina as a country where the people are desperate for dollars. I can assure you that the opposite is true in most cases.

Also, I'm not sure why you think there is no debt down here. People buy everything in quotas including groceries at the super market!

Oh, sorry. You are only talking about a specific section of the population. You are comparing "US/Europe/OZ" and "middle & upper classes in Buenos Aires".... that's a small part of the population vs whole continents.

In Europe the figure is less than 10 percent for ownership of Property outright meaning that many will lose their properties in the coming years with the downturn of the world economy.

"Europe" is a big place & what you say is just not true.

Switzerland is the only country in Europe that has such a low ownership rate & they don't seem to be doing so badly. Often the Swiss have mortgages (with rates of 2%-3%) on their main resident in Switzerland then own outright holiday homes, sometimes more than one.

In the UK ownership is about 65% and outright ownership is about 35%. That's only one country in Europe.

For many of us who call Buenos Aires home we find it offensive to be delegated as a third world city . Yes Buenos Aires has social problems and rising crime , It has dirt and grime and a bureaucracy that is frustrating but there is also many positives that make other large cities seem backward and boring.

I understand your point, but again, you can't keep putting down the rest of the world to make your case.

We moved down here on a local salary with local conditions. We have a perfectly nice life but I can guarantee you that down here get much less for our money than we did in Europe.

We have world class architecture, a vibrant culture that is alive 24 hours a day with a theatre district that is equal to any other as well as a thriving music scene . There are 24 hour coffee shops and clubs that have their doors open at 7am in the morning .We have Restaurants are on every corner and in my barrio there is over 700 alone serving mostly traditional fare but of late there has been a great improvement with Thai, Indian, Mexican , Peruvian restaurants opening their doors.

For those who wish to broaden their education Buenos Aires offers many free courses at the UBA or other courses at low cost . This is a city that has given many people a much better education than in other societies where costs are astronomical and non accessible to the lower classes.

Buenos Aires is for many myself included a beacon a hope in a troubled world.

The above is all true, but that doesn't negate the problems that exist & the fact that although the upper middle classes might not want to leave, the lower middle classes do, those of the former upper & middle classes do (& did) & the lower classes wish they could leave.

 

[mini]

As much as European expect 4 weeks holidays and all these benefits that they feel is their natural right their governments are working together to destroy those same rights . Wages are being drastically cut, pensions cut, age of retirement increased and holidays reduced.

Welcome to the New Europe of low wages and zero worker rights. I suggest that you click on the link and see the reality of wages across Europe. Spains minimum wage is just Euro 633 converted in pesos this is only 3300 pesos .


http://www.fedee.com/minwage.html

AGAIN, you are comparing EUROPE & SPAIN with Buenos Aires. These aren't even apples & oranges. It's like fish & oranges.....

You can buy more with your Euros than you can with your pesos. If I had to make a choice, I'd rather be in Spain with 633Euros than Buenos Aires with 3500peso. But luckily I don't have to make that choice.

Spain has also a huge informal economy of sweat shop workers who are paid much less .

& here we don't? What's your point?


ETA: According to Wiki the minimum wage in Argentina is 1200Pesos. I surely would rather live in Spain with 633E than in BA with 1200Pesos.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_wages_by_country