"argentna's Hypocrites Are Steeped In Blood" London Times

[TomAtAlki]

The second was maybe made by my husband, doubt it though, he loves the pizza here, you most likely twisted those words too.

You implied only Western civilization is disgusting not me.
N

 

[Joe]

The second was maybe made by my husband, doubt it though, he loves the pizza here, you most likely twisted those words too.

I am not sure which statement is most offensive, that "Western civilization is disgusting" or that "Argentinian pizza is a disgusting different food." Since I think most people would agree that Argentina is part of Western civilization you have Double Insulted Argentina.

To add insult to injury, by your own admission, you voted against Argentina in the pizza poll: http://baexpats.org/...ntina-or-italy/

 

[Gringoboy]

Joe, it appears that you consume more than adequate amounts of pizza.

 

[lamarque]

So no point of view on the hypocritical claims of the Falklands then?

What is the point of discussing something that will never reach an end (malvinas or Falklands)? The true I give a shit about that rocky islands but I understand the Argentine view and the English one, both of them have some reason.
Now back to the campaign, a little history so everybody understand what was the context that generate all this, The campaign have a previous and more violent faze that where the Spanish attack and murder of the aborigines, later on the Argentine republic born and there where a cease of aggressions between the parts, but soon enough the Malone start attacking the towns raping an taking the women’s as slaves and killing the guys, so rosas decide to attack the aborigines to rescue the imprisoned, in this first attack back in 1833 that was called "Campania rosas del desierto" with translation means campaign roses of the desert, in this campaign they kill 3200 Mapuches, take 1200 as prisoners and rescue 1000 white woman’s that where held as prisoners by the aborigines. From here on there was a peace situation in the frontier and no big attack from malones (big aggrupation of aborigines in arms that attack to steal, rape, take prisoners and murder as a way of life as later they sell the prisoners) where suffered after this campaign. Later on it comes the war between the confederation of Argentines Provinces and the government of Buenos Aires, this war make weaker the defense in the frontiers so the Malone taking advantage of weaker frontier defense start to attack the towns and take prisoners again and they become every time more and more stronger when the war between provinces and Buenos Aires finish with the victory of the confederation and the defeat of Buenos Aires the country start to act as a Republic, and they start to head south to control this malons attacks that were causing big damage every time more and more near to Buenos Aires.
By 1864 they already had the border controlled and they had construct 20 forts to protect the borders, so by 1870 Manuel Namuncura a aborigine chief that was in charge of the attacks decide to make a pact with the government of Argentina demanding 40 pesos/gold for every prisoner they had and weapons and lot of other demands including jabon, in exchange no more attack’s from the aborigines were going to happen.
There were 2 years of peace after the agreement and in 1872 the chief calfucura betrayed the agreement an form a 6000 aborigine army of them 1000 where Chileans to start what where called the big Buenos Aires Invasion in where many towns in the province where destroyed, lot of Argentinians killed and lot of woman’s taken as prisoners and 1.000.000 cows stolen all the cows where traded to Chileans terratenientes in the borders of the Andes, this mission plus the participation of Chile make big damage in what was in that times a relatively small and spare Argentine population (the population of Argentina was around 230.000 by that time), the betray of the aborigines after the agreement plus the damage taken and the economic and life lost plus the participation of Chile in this make the government to consider the law that finish into what we know as the campaign of the desert, this law had big support of the population because by that time lot of the people had suffer or lost someone on their family by this attacks and lot of them were considering leaving the towns to concentrate in Buenos Aires that had a better defense.
In 1875 a group of criollos + Tehuelches that were allied to the Argentine government start the fight in the south of Buenos Aires and move the fight to the south, the aborigine chief Jose Catriel sign a peace agreement with the Argentine government but short time after this agreement they attack with Namuncura the towns of tres arrollos, tandil and azul so the agreement after this The general Alsina take command of the defense of Buenos Aires make a trench of 374 km in the front line and install telegraph to communicate the forts, this was a defensive measure and he was a defense focused general but didn't solve the problem and didn't archive big success, in 1877 General Alsina dye and to replace him it come a new general with a total different approach to the problem this general was Julio Argentino Roca his approach was that in order to solve the problem for once the government should assimilate the aborigines in the population or if that not possible then expulse them or kill them, by 1878 Roca with an army of criollos and aborigines, mostly tehuelches septentrionales, tehuelches septentrionales cordilleranos, tehuelches septentrionales mapuchizados and the Boroganos that where local Patagonian aborigines that ally with Roca to attack the Mapuches (this is the reason of why in so many towns in Patagonia there are statues in commemoration of the help of the tehuelches and the Boroganos).
Roca manage to make the Aborigines stop their attacks and start defending them self he had in his command a force of 5000 soldiers in 5 divisions and 1000 allied tehuelches aborigines, he use a systematic attack to the aborigines bases to destroy the support of the Malone, by 1879 Roca was already in Choele Choel and take control of the fertile island of Valle Medio (this is where my town is, there is a big statue of Roca in there), from there they continue the fight through the Rio Negro and then to Bariloche and the area they founded towns in their way, in total there was 100.000 aborigines in Patagonia and La Pampa of them many were killed in one side and the other, many taken prisoners or assimilated and many cross the borders to the Chilean side.


In numbers
Killed: between 1828 and 1885 there were 50.000 aborigens killed and around 50.000 of Argentinians dead as result of the malones atacks, the constant fight between the parts and finally the Roca campaign on the desert that let 5000 aborigens dead directly in war and some more by other causes of war.

Kinapted: 50.000 womans, childrens and guys where kinapted and used or traded as slave by the Mapuches. And 15.000 aborigens were imprisoned in the desert campaign.

Stolen: in total 11 millons cows head were stolen by the molones plus 3 millon horse and 2 millon gold pesos and 3000 houses burned by the malones, and many toldos (the aborigens houses) burned by Roca.

Lands: The lands where given to the soldiers and the new inhabitant of this lands and the remaining lands where solded in Paris and London for comercial interest.

Aborigens: Many of the aborigens got asimilated and many cross to chile, later on tens of millons of european came directly to Argentina making the aborigen numbers insignificant and the phrase that Argentines came from the boats very popular.

I put this Brief history so the ones that don't have a clue can now understand what was this campaign about, and the ones that hear about it can have more information, hope this is of some help.

 

[JamJam]

I'm not surprised the natives started killing the Argentineans as they have occupied their country. Its a bit sad that you try and justify this genocide.

 

[lamarque]

I'm not surprised the natives started killing the Argentineans as they have occupied their country. Its a bit sad that you try and justify this genocide.

uhm what you mean? i didn't try to justify a genocide, i just translate the wikipedia article of the Desert campaign so people that have 0 idea of what was that about can understand the conversation, in any case there was a war between various part, i just try to ilustrate that this is the violent nature of the humans dosn't matter from what kind you are white, yellow, black, Amerindian, war will always be there until people learn how to tolerate each other, before the desert campaign there was a war between argentines from the provinces and Buenos Aires that was far more bloody, and another war between paraguay brazil, uruguay, and argentina in where 75% of the paraguayan population where exterminated, and another war in bolivia between chile, bolivia and peru that define the poor future of bolivia as a nation that is the sad reallity but not only of this part of the world this is the reality of all the nations in the world.
And there are nations that even now a days continue doing this wars and continue the cicle of violence.

 

[cbonanni]

Jam Jam ,

Why don't you just read the history yourself. Lamarque is just relaying information , NOT forming an opinion or justification.

Express your opinion as you see fit. Being aggressive towards others in expressing your opinion is uncalled for.

I am sure there are other forums out there that may be more suited to that . BTW , we already have a "politically correct" chairman.

 

[HenryNisental]

DO NOT FORGET THAT JULIO A ROCA WAS A WAR MINISTER ONLY.
HE DID NOT DECIDED TO START THE DESERT CAMPAIGN AGAINST THE MAPUCHES AND THEIR ALLIES. HE FOLLOWED ORDERS FROM HIS SUPERIORS.
HE WAS ORDERED TO DO SO BY THE ARGENTINE CONGRESS, WHO PROVIDED THE GUNS, RIFLES, SOLDIERS AND FUNDS TO CARRY IT OUT.
AND EVEN IF THE BATLLE WAS ONE-SIDED, THE SURVIVORS WERE NOT EXTERMINATED, AS HIS CRITICS SAY. THEY WERE TAKEN PRISIONER AND DISTRIBUTED IN FARMS AS FREE HELP. THIS FACT EXPLODES THE ACCUSATION OF GENOCIDE, SINCE ONLY 1200 INDIANS WERE KILLED IN THE CAMPAIGN.
BY THE WAY, BRIG. GEN J M ROSAS KILLED 3200 INDIANS EARLIER ON, BUT HE IS CONSIDERED A "FRIEND" OF THE INDIANS. THIS IS CLEARLY CALLED HIPOCRESY .

 

[Yogur griego]

BY THE WAY, BRIG. GEN J M ROSAS KILLED 3200 INDIANS EARLIER ON, BUT HE IS CONSIDERED A "FRIEND" OF THE INDIANS. THIS IS CLEARLY CALLED HIPOCRESY .

Please do not exhume mister Juan Manuel too because then it's going to be crow-ded with arrogant historical morons here.

Frankly, he was just another caudillo predecessor of Perón/Stroessner/Pinochet/Chávez etc.

Anyway, I do not necessarily feel great about the historical treatment of the native population either (and also, more importantly in scale, the now inexistent population of descendants of African slaves), but I am still kind of glad Roca's generation of aristocrats decided it would be a good idea to try and imitate European capitals and invite so many immigrants, because we all love Buenos Aires because it's Buenos Aires, right?

Cruelty is universal and inevitable in history, that's also the tragic thing about what we call 'civilization', it's been all about whatever wolf gets to be stronger than the rest of the wolves. Hopefully, one day we will we able to live in better harmony with other living beings. Now let me roast this mid night chicken and enjoy it.

 

[mrporoto]

Whatever to op is you will find some tossers bringing the same boring crap out,pizzzzaaaaa...........give it a rest it is not real food