Been down here 3 months and got beat-up & mugged

[ghost]

On our way to see an art exhibit in la boca on Sunday afternoon my boyfriend and were attacked by four youngish guys. punched, kicked, beaten, my purse and cell stolen all while a woman looked out her window above as I was screaming for help & policia. Nada. Horrible!

Welcome to the New BA. It's a nice place to be from.

 

[Guillo]

However, the fact that many people are unsuited or averse to carrying arms doesn't mean that people like me should have our hands tied.

Actually, its not a constitutional right to carry arms in Argentina . And I'm glad for it.
Having "Portación", which is what you describe, its not easy to get, thanks god otherwise you'd have a bunch of Rambo wannabees carrying the piece around and risking everyone's life.

 

[joelie]

Dang! I was in La Boca with my husband on Sunday afternoon as well! It was only when we got close and we started seeing football fans that we realised the Super Clasiko was on and we started getting a bit nervous. I wouldn't have gone if I had realised the game was on. Fortunately for us we didn't need to stay long.
I don't know if it works for everyone, but we tend to dress VERY casually which might be why we fly under the radar a bit generally speaking.

That's terrible that that happened to you. I hope you guys are recovering, both physically and psychologically.

 

[Hache]

Thanks for your reply.

I find the fact that all that even needs to be explicitly stated a bit comical

I truly hope my opinionated stampede of words is comical and unneeded. At least on this board. I can assure you many people outside this board need that explained, and that's tragical.

and begin to wonder if my opposition might be correct in asserting that the average person is too stupid to handle the grave responsibility of a firearm.

I see we both agree on the grave responsibility possessing a firearm entails. What's your idea of "average person"? I I don't have a definition for that. As for being stupid, all I can say is I know intelligent people who feel safer having a gun at their homes. They didn't fire a single round, not even for training, yet the sleep so much better. It's something a fail to understand. I'd feel safer sleeping with a werewolf mask on. I may scare an intruder to death...

Anyway, I reckon them intelligent as I know how easily they incorporate and apply knowledge. Still, they didn't bother learning to operate their firearms. So this may be more psychology-related than intelligence-related. They may be in some kind of denial and if so, a dangerous one. It could be a case of intelligent people making a stupid move. If I remember well, they all got pistols. They're tech freaks, so the like a sleek-looking pistol, and I'm 100 % sure they all read their manuals from start to end.

I gun-hobbyist neighbor told me your first gun should be a revolver. "Simpler in every way, never gets jammed". His words, but he was firing guns long before I was born, and assume he knew what he said. I take the opportunity to ask you if that's right. Anyway, the way they go, I hope my friends keep their manuals next to their guns. I hope they keep the troubleshooting page bookmarked as well.

Maybe the "average" person is too naive to handle the grave responsibility of a firearm, rather than stupid.

If I kill in legitimate self defence and am prosecuted, the problem lies not with me or the gun itself, but rather with the now deceased agressor and the judge/system for failing to regognize my natural right to self preservation. If I kill an innocent, than I am guilty of murder (or maybe manslaughter) and should be tried according to the law. Is that such a complex idea?

First thing first. You accept that by killing an innocent you're guilty of manslaughter no matter how unfortunate such outcome may be. You're not looking for possible excuses. I'm so glad I'm conversing with a real responsible adult. In fact, you exposed me completely: I said the situation would be complicated because I imagined myself in it and fooled myself into looking for an inexistent way out. Is that naive or stupid? I let you choose. But in real life, and at least as far as this matter's concerned, I'm neither: you see why I don't to own a gun?

Thanks for that, very informative.

You're welcome, but take it as right in general terms.

I bet you could do just fine, with a little practice and familiarization.

Of course I could, as far as skills and sport are concerned! I could become a shooting champion if I practice real hard! Even an instructor! But in a fighting context... my mind will go blank. I KNOW IT. I have no problem saying it: it doesn't take me much to panic when feeling threatened. I'd never own a gun, I'd never be a surgeon, I'd never be an air traffic controller, I'd never be a Police officer, soldier or lifeguard. I choose not to be involved in things my mistakes could lead to fatal disaster. If you were a Marine, then I have 0,00000001% of your balls and nerves. You have my respect.

I can play my instrument in front of 3,000 people feeling rock-solid secure and enjoying every minute. I did it. I'd give anything for just one chance to play in a full stadium. In that context, a crowd may be intimidating, but not threatening. No threat, no panic triggered. I'm cool. And you're better off with me not entering your field, which stands much higher. Let's pretend we switch jobs for one day. In your case, any outcome would be anecdotical. In mine, it could be disastrous.

That may or may not be true, but criminals will be armed regardless of the law, and I'd like a level playing field.

Then what you want is more professional armed agents on the streets. I stand by my words. I don't want civilians carrying guns on the streets without very serious reasons. French Jurist pointed out our driving. That says it all.

In the long run, what's really dangerous is hoplophobia among the law abiding public.

I think what you call hoplophobia is in fact a fearful respect for what guns can do and unlike phobias, is rational.

 

[CedarPawn]

Actually, its not a constitutional right to carry arms in Argentina . And I'm glad for it.
Having "Portación", which is what you describe, its not easy to get, thanks god otherwise you'd have a bunch of Rambo wannabees carrying the piece around and risking everyone's life.

That's true, and that's both why I didn't bring my gun with me and why I'll still be an American if I spend the next 50 years here. As I'm not local, this discussion as it pertains to Argentina is purely philosophical for me, and maybe I'm wrong, and the culture here couldn't handle that much freedom. I don't vote or hold property here and my opinion on the matter isn't important, it's your country after all. Thor willing, I won't have cause to regret it while I'm here.

 

[Caz]

Is anyone else going to say what should be obvious here? Were it only legal here, responsibly carried firearms could nip this problem in the bud.

I *have* to agree with you CedarPawn. The places where you have the LEAST crime are where you have the right to carry (and if need be) use a weapon. IF the bad guys know you will be armed and that you are prepared to use what you are carrying they will DEFINITELY think twice about it. Its only because a target is seen as ''soft'' that the bad guys go for it. I have lived in several countries where I *did* have the right to carry a gun and I can honestly say that there is nothing to boost your confidence like a 9mm on your hip with 17 rounds in the mag and one ''up the spout''

 

[CedarPawn]

Thanks for your reply.



I truly hope my opinionated stampede of words is comical and unneeded. At least on this board. I can assure you many people outside this board need that explained, and that's tragical.



I see we both agree on the grave responsibility possessing a firearm entails. What's your idea of "average person"? I I don't have a definition for that. As for being stupid, all I can say is I know intelligent people who feel safer having a gun at their homes. They didn't fire a single round, not even for training, yet the sleep so much better. It's something a fail to understand. I'd feel safer sleeping with a werewolf mask on. I may scare an intruder to death...

Anyway, I reckon them intelligent as I know how easily they incorporate and apply knowledge. Still, they didn't bother learning to operate their firearms. So this may be more psychology-related than intelligence-related. They may be in some kind of denial and if so, a dangerous one. It could be a case of intelligent people making a stupid move. If I remember well, they all got pistols. They're tech freaks, so the like a sleek-looking pistol, and I'm 100 % sure they all read their manuals from start to end.

I gun-hobbyist neighbor told me your first gun should be a revolver. "Simpler in every way, never gets jammed". His words, but he was firing guns long before I was born, and assume he knew what he said. I take the opportunity to ask you if that's right. Anyway, the way they go, I hope my friends keep their manuals next to their guns. I hope they keep the troubleshooting page bookmarked as well.

Maybe the "average" person is too naive to handle the grave responsibility of a firearm, rather than stupid.



First thing first. You accept that by killing an innocent you're guilty of manslaughter no matter how unfortunate such outcome may be. You're not looking for possible excuses. I'm so glad I'm conversing with a real responsible adult. In fact, you exposed me completely: I said the situation would be complicated because I imagined myself in it and fooled myself into looking for an inexistent way out. Is that naive or stupid? I let you choose. But in real life, and at least as far as this matter's concerned, I'm neither: you see why I don't to own a gun?




You're welcome, but take it as right in general terms.



Of course I could, as far as skills and sport are concerned! I could become a shooting champion if I practice real hard! Even an instructor! But in a fighting context... my mind will go blank. I KNOW IT. I have no problem saying it: it doesn't take me much to panic when feeling threatened. I'd never own a gun, I'd never be a surgeon, I'd never be an air traffic controller, I'd never be a Police officer, soldier or lifeguard. I choose not to be involved in things my mistakes could lead to fatal disaster. If you were a Marine, then I have 0,00000001% of your balls and nerves. You have my respect.

I can play my instrument in front of 3,000 people feeling rock-solid secure and enjoying every minute. I did it. I'd give anything for just one chance to play in a full stadium. In that context, a crowd may be intimidating, but not threatening. No threat, no panic triggered. I'm cool. And you're better off with me not entering your field, which stands much higher. Let's pretend we switch jobs for one day. In your case, any outcome would be anecdotical. In mine, it could be disastrous.



Then what you want is more professional armed agents on the streets. I stand by my words. I don't want civilians carrying guns on the streets without very serious reasons. French Jurist pointed out our driving. That says it all.



I think what you call hoplophobia is in fact a fearful respect for what guns can do and unlike phobias, is rational.

Average people: I don't really feel qualified yet to talk specifically about the "average" Argentine as it relates to this discussion, but generally speaking I would describe the average man as one who is intelligent enough to hold a job, raise a family if that's his calling, and understand a novel but maybe not Plato's ideas about metaphysics. He's brave enough to stand up for himself, but not usually up for heroics. He has at least a moderately informed opinion on things, but probably wouldn't run for office. That's the sort of person I think of when I say "average", does that work for you (and if anyone reading this wants to weigh in on that, please do so)? If so, I think this person is niether stupid nor incompetent, and probably capable of carrying arms. As you say, nieve is probably a better word for many people, but nievete is a state caused by circumstances rather than innate ability and as such it is correctable with (not to beat a dead horse) education and training. Hands on training, you can read manuals all day but that's not enough, I don't care who you are.

This ties in to what you say about how you would freeze up in a fight. Obviously I don't know you, and forgive me if I'm being presumptuous, but for what it's worth I think you might be surprised. Every human being has a fight or flight instinct, and when backed into a corner people can achieve remarkable things. Hopefully you won't ever have to find out since music is better than violence any day, but deep down it's there.

On the manslaughter thing: I just want to be fully clear in case I wasn't earlier; I would not support prosecution of a good samaritan automatically, rather, ONLY if it were found that the accidental killing was negligent (i.e. spraying indiscriminantly, panicking and not aiming, trying to pull stupid movie trick shots etc.). Such negligence should be penalized or people will "play Rambo" as someone on this thread said; but on the other hand it would be unjust and counterproductive to make people afraid of protecting one another. Balance is key here I think, as with just about anything.

Hoplophobia: No, what I call Hoplophobia is the reactionary, irrational fear that many people have at the very sight or mention of a gun. To fear an inanimate piece of metal (itself, as opposed to the tyrant or criminal who might be using it) is absolutely out of touch with reality, it's based entirely on psychological conditioning. The reasonable awareness of a gun's capabilities you describe isn't fear at all, but what in an enlightened society should be simple common sense.

More armed agents on the street: You must be envisioning Big Brother on every corner 24/7 then. There's a saying: "When seconds count, the police are only minutes away." I know that sounds a bit trite, but it's true nontheless.

 

[CedarPawn]

I *have* to agree with you CedarPawn. The places where you have the LEAST crime are where you have the right to carry (and if need be) use a weapon. IF the bad guys know you will be armed and that you are prepared to use what you are carrying they will DEFINITELY think twice about it. Its only because a target is seen as ''soft'' that the bad guys go for it. I have lived in several countries where I *did* have the right to carry a gun and I can honestly say that there is nothing to boost your confidence like a 9mm on your hip with 17 rounds in the mag and one ''up the spout''

A 9mm? Pffft, do you get in gunfights with old ladies?

 

[CedarPawn]

9mm not big enough for you...?

(Insert penis joke here)

Heh, didn't see that one coming at all. Well, I'm off to go mount a rocket launcher on my corvette.