Best country to move to when life in Argentina becomes intolerable

[steveinbsas]

You do know there's a mandatory vaccination law in Argentina, right?

Is it as enforceable as the law which requires employers to pay their employees en blanco or businesses to report all of their sales and pay the taxes which apply to those transactions?

I have all of the "required vaccinations" except for the ones that have been "offered" since the definition of the word "vaccine" was changed.

No one ever knocked on my door asking or ordering me to take them, even though I signed up for them as soon as the app allowed. I actually showed up for my turno and cancelled it in person as it was too late to do so online and I never heard anything about it afterwards.

Only one of my doctor's ever ordered me to take any kind of shot, and he did so twice after two minor foot surgeries. As I live in el campo and fear the rusty nail far more than the sterile needle, I complied without hesitation.

 

[aloevera]

Is it as enforceable as the law which requires employers to pay their employees en blanco or businesses to report all of their sales and pay the taxes which apply to those transactions?

Generally, it is unenforced, but some universities do ask to see your CUV (carnet unificado de vacunacion) when enrolling (this is the case in most countries). But if someone is crying about evil communist Brasil and their vaccine laws, then they should know that Argentina has the exact same thing.

 

[gringoexpress]

Generally, it is unenforced, but some universities do ask to see your CUV (carnet unificado de vacunacion) when enrolling (this is the case in most countries). But if someone is crying about evil communist Brasil and their vaccine laws, then they should know that Argentina has the exact same thing.

Except Lula has actually been sending the Gestapo around to screw with people who get in the way of his agenda. I'm not whining about the law, I'm whining about the lack of rule of law in Brasil since last year. The law is now whatever the STF says it is, and nobody can stop them from having people arbitrarily arrested and thrown into concentration camps or in many other ways having their rights violated for going against the crazy leftist agenda of Lula and company. They're completely different things.

I did take a look at the law and it looks like the government can refuse to renew your documents, in theory, if you don't have vaccinations. That's fine, I'll pack my bags and go elsewhere if I have to. Lula is on the warpath against homeschooling and pushing to poison kids in school without their parents knowledge or consent, and has criminalized any discussion about why people keep dropping dead of sudden heart failure. People actually are getting sent to prison over this stuff, so, I'm out. Sounds like some of the posters here would fit right in, so, maybe once Argentina starts improving because of all the leftist crap choking the economy to death being repealed and they miss living in a decrepit socialist shithole they can make the same trip I made in reverse...

 

[retiredbanker]

In summation, nobody is moving anywhere.

 

[aloevera]

Except Lula has actually been sending the Gestapo around to screw with people who get in the way of his agenda. I'm not whining about the law, I'm whining about the lack of rule of law in Brasil since last year. The law is now whatever the STF says it is, and nobody can stop them from having people arbitrarily arrested and thrown into concentration camps or in many other ways having their rights violated for going against the crazy leftist agenda of Lula and company. They're completely different things.

I myself am nonvaxxed against covid, so I understand and respect your stance. I agree that the STF obviously has too much power, although I am very unaware of the intricacies of the situation in Brasil so I can't comment on the concentration camps allegation...

I did take a look at the law and it looks like the government can refuse to renew your documents, in theory, if you don't have vaccinations. That's fine, I'll pack my bags and go elsewhere if I have to.

There are some laws that exist on paper in Argentina but are completely unenforced, and even if they are enforced, it is easy to bypass and ignore them, so I doubt anyone will have to pack their bags in response. Also, important: article 13 of law 27491 essentially makes the whole thing moot...
It says:

Art. 13.- La certificación del cumplimiento del Calendario Nacional de Vacunación debe ser requerida en los trámites para:

a) Ingreso y egreso del ciclo lectivo tanto obligatorio como optativo, formal o informal;

b) Realización de los exámenes médicos de salud que se llevan a cabo en el marco de la ley 24.557 de riesgos del trabajo;

c) Tramitación o renovación de DNI, pasaporte, residencia, certificado prenupcial y licencia de conducir;

d) Tramitación de asignaciones familiares conforme la ley 24.714 y de asignaciones monetarias no retributivas, cualquiera sea su nombre estipuladas por normas vigentes.

La difusión previa a la implementación del presente artículo, su ejecución y los plazos de la misma, serán especificados en la reglamentación, de modo tal de favorecer el acceso de la población a la vacunación en todas las etapas de la vida sin impedir la concreción de estos trámites.

The law 27491 was regulated by decree 439/2023.
It says:

ARTÍCULO 13.- A los efectos de la certificación del cumplimiento del Calendario Nacional de Vacunación previsto en el artículo de la Ley que se reglamenta, conforme lo establecido en su último párrafo, se considerará que:

La falta de presentación de la certificación requerida para los incisos a), b), c) y d) del artículo que se reglamenta, en ningún caso supondrá un impedimento para ingreso o egreso del ciclo lectivo, ingreso o permanencia laboral o la prosecución de los trámites mencionados. No obstante, deberá procederse a la comunicación establecida en los términos del artículo 11 de la Ley que se reglamenta, de manera directa a la Autoridad administrativa de protección de derechos de las niñas, los niños y adolescentes en el ámbito local, o a través de la Autoridad de Aplicación Nacional, o de los organismos provinciales y de la Ciudad Autónoma de Buenos Aires con competencia en la materia.

Con el fin de informar a la población acerca del cumplimiento de lo establecido, la Autoridad de Aplicación, en conjunto con las autoridades jurisdiccionales, arbitrará los medios para llevar a cabo actividades de difusión y comunicación, y articular acciones para favorecer la vacunación en todas las etapas de la vida de las personas.

So, the whole thing with regards to issuance of documents seems to be made irrelevant by these lines, but of course, the law still exists and could probably be enforced selectively. The law does contain a provision for forced vaccinations (article 14), which is very problematic. And of course, the law also required the government to create a digital database of the vaccines that people have, just one more piece of data they have on everyone. One more piece of data that anyone can hack into and sell on forums which don't look too different from this one...

Anyway...
All large countries, such as Brasil (and the US, and China, and more), tend towards authoritarian policies to control their large populations - one example, is the conscription in Brasil, in addition to the vaccine laws. Only a very small percent of the pop. is actually conscripted into service, but all men unfortunately still have to register and get the military enlistment certificate, which is required to apply for a passport there (they do enforce this) and to carry out many other life functions.

Lula is on the warpath against homeschooling and pushing to poison kids in school without their parents knowledge or consent, and has criminalized any discussion about why people keep dropping dead of sudden heart failure. People actually are getting sent to prison over this stuff, so, I'm out.

I'm not aware of any anti-homeschooling laws or forced vaccinations in schools there (I don't keep up with the news there), but if forced vaccinations without parental and individual consent are indeed happening, it would just be a continuation of the authoritarianism that is deeply embedded in Brasilian society. So, I really do understand why you're selling your property there. The best solution in the case of authoritarian governments is to leave. Argentina is much nicer with regards to freedoms, especially freedom from authoritarianism.

Sounds like some of the posters here would fit right in, so, maybe once Argentina starts improving because of all the leftist crap choking the economy to death being repealed and they miss living in a decrepit socialist shithole they can make the same trip I made in reverse...

Milei will fail.

 

[SinPulgas]

I myself am nonvaxxed against covid, so I understand and respect your stance. I agree that the STF obviously has too much power, although I am very unaware of the intricacies of the situation in Brasil so I can't comment on the concentration camps allegation...

There are some laws that exist on paper in Argentina but are completely unenforced, and even if they are enforced, it is easy to bypass and ignore them, so I doubt anyone will have to pack their bags in response. Also, important: article 13 of law 27491 essentially makes the whole thing moot...
It says:

The law 27491 was regulated by decree 439/2023.
It says:

So, the whole thing with regards to issuance of documents seems to be made irrelevant by these lines, but of course, the law still exists and could probably be enforced selectively. The law does contain a provision for forced vaccinations (article 14), which is very problematic. And of course, the law also required the government to create a digital database of the vaccines that people have, just one more piece of data they have on everyone. One more piece of data that anyone can hack into and sell on forums which don't look too different from this one...

Anyway...
All large countries, such as Brasil (and the US, and China, and more), tend towards authoritarian policies to control their large populations - one example, is the conscription in Brasil, in addition to the vaccine laws. Only a very small percent of the pop. is actually conscripted into service, but all men unfortunately still have to register and get the military enlistment certificate, which is required to apply for a passport there (they do enforce this) and to carry out many other life functions.

I'm not aware of any anti-homeschooling laws or forced vaccinations in schools there (I don't keep up with the news there), but if forced vaccinations without parental and individual consent are indeed happening, it would just be a continuation of the authoritarianism that is deeply embedded in Brasilian society. So, I really do understand why you're selling your property there. The best solution in the case of authoritarian governments is to leave. Argentina is much nicer with regards to freedoms, especially freedom from authoritarianism.

Milei will fail.

You really are the gift that just keeps on giving.

 

[retiredbanker]

As much as we complain just got back from Hipodrome in Palermo (casino and race track). It was PACKED. And many of those there were betting 125, 250 and 500 pesos each bet.

 

[Quilombo]

As much as we complain just got back from Hipodrome in Palermo (casino and race track). It was PACKED. And many of those there were betting 125, 250 and 500 pesos each bet.

I mean, that is literally pennies, and to be fair isn't gambling, prostitution, alcohol, cigarettes, and drugs generally recession proof?

 

[retiredbanker]

I mean, that is literally pennies, and to be fair isn't gambling, prostitution, alcohol, cigarettes, and drugs generally recession proof?

500 pesos is 50 cents (in US dollars). While you and I may be fortunate enough not to worry about chump change like that, at a casino that's a lot of money for each roll of a slot machine (even in Las Vegas). Every other post bemoans the affordability of things here. When a bus fare/train trip is 4 cents more (again in US dollars) the moaning is loud but I see the complete opposite at the casino. It's a different world.

 

[argeiCanuck]

Any experience with the Rio de Janeiro long term rental market compared to Bs As? More expensive? Guarantia required? Availability for foreigners? For reference I consider BsAs rental market availability today to be very tough.

For someone who has Argentine permanent residency is it feasible to live there for an extended period of time (say one year)? Or do I need a whole new trámite from scratch.

7 years ago Rio was 50% more expensive than Bs As (overall generally speaking). If not much has changed in Rio since, that would mean that BsAs today would be more expensive than Rio. Am I off the mark?