Blue Dollar 2013 Projections .... Blue Sky...!!

[Sockhopper]

El Queso,

I think that you and I conceive of the world and this matter so differently that no consensus is possible between us. But that’s okay because that’s how it is. And I appreciate very much hearing your reasons in support of your view although I disagree with most of them as you do mine.

Your reasoning centres on the government in capital letters and a belief that foreigners shouldn’t feel obliged to comply with a law passed by a government that a portion of Argentina’s own citizens strongly criticizes or resists. Mine centres on the prevailing law of the place where one is and the obligation to comply with that, not on judging whether that law is wrong or whether or not it must have been passed by an incompetent government.

Once a law comes into force, it has its own life and scope of application unless and until it’s repealed, amended, judicially ‘read down’ or judicially declared unconstitutional. We live with roughly that format in most countries and in democracies we prize it because we attach it to everyone being subject to the same laws to the same full degree. To weaken that fundamental principle of democracy in one country would tend to weaken it in others. It’s very worth our while then to honour all the laws of any country that one is in.


When I’m given permission to be in a country that’s not mine, I receive the tangible benefit of being enabled to now experience it. With my acceptance of that benefit comes my obligation to conform with all its laws including those I don’t like. To actively defy any would be to disrespect how a foreign system developed and organizes itself so as to shape its existence and its goals and what its people can and can’t do in light of these. To break the kind of laws we’re talking about would require a foreigner to inflict his sense of cultural superiority upon other countries. As a visitor, new resident or expat who’s not a citizen, I don’t have the prerogative to act there in ways that suggest that people don’t have to conform with that nation’s laws while there! Freedom of exp<b></b>ression is not freedom of action.

When planning to visit or live in another country I ask myself what my capacity and threshold is likely to be in relation to honouring that country’s laws while I’m in it. I don’t want to sneak around in places because to do so would be tantamount to hurting my freedom to be happy. If some of those laws would conflict too onerously with my economic, social or political needs and I don’t see those restrictions which I’m obliged to obey being balanced by compensatory benefits, it’s my responsibility to not go or live there unless I can resolve these obstructions in legal ways. I can’t know everything in advance of going there and there are certain to be untoward surprises that I didn’t anticipate but later run up against. But once I’m there and should I feel forced to break a law or leave, in good faith I must leave.

For this reason, I respect those expats who conduct that assessment for themselves while in Argentina and who decide on balance to leave rather than feel miserable there, blame Argentines for their government or turn to that country’s underworld and the well-known activities of all such. On what basis could someone who chose to live there not leave in that scenario when our own countries have been coming down so hard on money-laundering this past decade and IF the cause of some foreigners’ dissatisfaction in Argentina concerns its not following or adopting the ways of our countries that some foreigners perceive as better?!

Assembling arguments as to why it’s okay, just, or even correct (!) to break a law in one country that disappoints you but not in another that’s more amenable to your doing what you want doesn’t seem principled to me because there is no principle that says a person can do whatever he can do if it benefits him personally.

The trap in feeling that one’s own country’s ways are superior is that this can lead to presuming that given time other countries with ‘potential’ (and that we might be considering relocating to) will also adhere to philosophies and theories that our own countries live by and promote. That is a recipe for disappointment and blaming that country if one doesn’t accept responsibility for having mistakenly thought that his long-held beliefs garnered in his country of birth or affiliation hold no or less sway in other countries.

The shocker to me is that latching onto what ‘must be superior’ in our view seems to not have worked even in some Western countries! New perspectives on what a single country’s goals should be and how its particular society, money and institutions are to operate are being tested by several countries. I’m seeing significant departures in how different countries are choosing to regulate compared to even just a decade ago, so much so that my former understanding of what I knew to expect and rely upon is not only outdated but gone. Instead, this seems to be a period of experimentation following economic failure and social changes that have rocked or mocked the underpinnings of our secure beliefs. It’s too early, I think, to pass judgment on what works and doesn’t and more changes are yet to come.

I’m not in a country to judge its law, government or politics if I’m not a citizen of it. All I can do is observe, learn, make errors and see if my goals succeed within it and how well I can adapt by conforming with its law. It’s definitely not my job to be concerned that not wanting to run afoul of Argentine law could apparently subject someone to derision on this forum as you say although I am shocked to learn of that perspective since foreigners and expats regularly report and scorn the lawless behaviours of Argentines! Also, the fact that I know portenos who don’t fall into any of the 4 categories you assign to those who object to the reliance upon the $US in Argentina is a fact separate from me. It’s not my role to question their or your beliefs or pick a side that 'must be' right.

But I do know that a nation having its own currency and its not being overtly tied to some other is one of the key attributes that lead a people to feel that they actually belong to a real nation. I think that’s something worth demonstrating one’s active respect for while in any foreign country. Wanting a country you’re in to behave like yours while simultaneously not showing that country’s laws the same level of respect you’d show your own country’s seriously makes me doubt that our values and approaches to problem-solving are superior.

 

[solerboy]

We should all know what is right and what is wrong.
We should also all know what is legal and what is illegal.

Sometimes the two things dont reconcile.

So we are left to use our concience.

 

[PhilipDT]

[font=Arial']If foreigners visited my country and were effectively charged 35% less than I pay, I’d be outraged. [/font]

I don't think you get it. Lets say a foreigner is in Argentina and going out for some nice wine and steak, at the same time an Argentine is on vacation in new york and going out to eat. Both restaurants are cash only. The Argentine's bill comes to $100 dollars in NY, while the foreigners bill in BA comes out to 650 pesos. Both pay their respective bills. The foreigner thinks, "oh that cost me a little over $100 dollars"; the Argentine thinks "che, mas que siescientos cincuenta mangos! no me joda".

 

[ElQueso]

Sockhopper, I appreciate that we don't agree, and I'm not trying to push this, but I have a few comments in rebuttal.

At the end of the day, the most important thing I tried to explain (and failed miserably as I went back and read my post) is that the government is committing fraud and theft and (in my opinion, I may be wrong) is attempting to enforce an invalid contract between parties that don't agree to the contract. Whether or not this situation could be viewed in terms of a contract may be a bit up in the air, but the theft and fraud is not.

By setting its value for peso to dollar at a rate lower than the real value of the peso, it is insisting that WHOEVER performs a transaction of this sort, they do it in favor of the government. Just as you cannot legislate whether or not the sun will rise tomorrow, you cannot legislate the value of something, unless all who are to be held to that value are in agreement, when at least one of the properties doesn't belong to you. The dollar does not belong to Argentina.

To me, this is an implicit contract and you cannot hold another person (or entity) to a contract against their will unless they agreed to the contract to begin with. This holds true for most legal systems in the world, as far as I know, even here in Argentina. In fact, my sister-in-law is in the Empresarial track in school and was studying law this year. I helped her understand the subject matte, and it required me to read about the Argentine legal system. The law here states the concept quite unequivocally that you cannot hold a third party to a contract that was between two other entities.

It is a contract in this sense because Argentina does not set the value for other currencies. By creating an artificial price for their currency in relation to the de facto default world currency (the dollar), they are doing exactly that and are attempting to bind others to their artificial value, effectively lowering the value of the dollar and other currencies here in Argentina, quite against my will as an American, whose income is in dollars, and I am being robbed when forced to accept a lesser value for it.

Granted, I am not a lawyer, and perhaps I am wrong in comparing this to a contract exactly, but at the very least it is fraud and theft, as long as we all agree that the real value of the peso is not what the government is saying it is and are forcing everyone to hold to that.

This presents my position more closely than the way you stated it. You are free to disagree, obviously, and I respect that, but I want to be clear as to why I believe what I do. I'm not a robber baron, I'm not a greedy vulture fund, none of the entities that can really do damage (legally or illegally) to other entities. I do not flaunt the laws of this country at random, but perhaps at will, when I am being unjustly forced into such a position. In fact, if I remember correctly, there was news of a law suit being brought about as to the unconstitutionality of the law (or decree - I'm unsure which it was).

As to many of us expats giving Argentinos a hard time about flaunting their own laws, and indeed, ignoring them (and I am indeed one of those who have done such), well, it is the very flaunting of those laws by such as the president and many members of the government that we are talking about, in addition to the those acts performed by a good percentage of its citizenry. You are correct in stating that just because they do it, that in and of itself doesn't give us the right to do so.

As far as I know, I am not actually breaking any laws, personally, with the possible exception of when I'm exchanging cash here. I pay taxes, I stop at red lights, I don't steal, I don't kill, I don't defraud people of their money, etc.

The cuevas (I'm talking about real cuevas, not little arbolitos that exchange cash), as I understand it, are operating under a gray area of the law. It's one of the reasons AFIP has not shut them down and at one point was actually working with them to attempt to control the blue rate somewhat, back earlier in the year. I am not actually making any exchanges here in Argentina when I do use a cueva to receive funds here. I am wiring money to a foreign (to Argentina) bank and am receiving money that is already here in exchange. In no way does any money from my transaction actually enter or leave Argentina. The cuevas are buying and selling AR bonds legally in other countries, and as far as I know, they are paying taxes on any profits. That may or may not include profits generated from transactions such as mine as well. However, that is NOT my problem if they are not declaring their income properly.

As far as the arbolitos go, I have to think that, as well, must be somewhat gray. I admit that I don't know the details of how the law reads as to what is illegal and what is not as far as currency exchange goes. But I think the law specifically applies to business who are set up as change houses, not individual people.

I have to think that if individual people are specifically targeted related to changing currency, that would never work. One, it's completely unenforceable unless someone is caught in the act. Two, is it possible to really prevent someone, even in Argentina under the current constitution, from walking up to another person and the two privately deciding that they would make a trade for currency between themselves? Again, I would assume that if someone profits from the transaction, that could be declared as income tax evasion, but how would either side even prove what the earnings were? And what number would be used - the artificial value of the dollar to peso, or the real one? Argentina has no right to devalue the dollar between private persons, in my opinion.

When I go to an arbolito, I am really doing business with another private individual, as far as i am concerned. As I say though, this may be the one exception as to whether or not I am breaking the law here. However, I feel quite justified as the government, without doubt, is committing fraud and theft, by forcing me to lose money with a rate that does not equal the true value of their currency, forcing my currency to be undervalued.

If I am breaking the law, I stand ready to accept the consequences. As a legal permanent resident and taxpayer, I feel I do indeed have the right to make that decision without having to submit to the "do everything exactly as the government tells you or leave if you don't like it" concept. Again, between our two worlds there is quite a difference and you are free to feel that I am wrong, but that doesn't change my stance in my own well-developed code of morals.

As to me specifically offering opinions that my country does things better than here, and therefore that gives me the right to ignore the laws of this country, I can say without hesitation and unequivocally that you are dead wrong. I cannot speak for others on this, and there may indeed be those who feel that way, but you cannot put that one on me. For one thing, if you have read many of my posts, you will see that I am equally critical of my own country's government and how it is run. However, I do not use that as any excuse to break the law here and flaunt such things in the face of the native or naturalized citizenry of this country. As stated, my reasons for possibly "flaunting" this specific "law" are quite different and are specifically centered on this one issue, in this country only.

As far as this one aspect of life here goes, however, in which I may or may not be actually breaking any laws personally, if I am doing business with an underground element and this helps to maintain and support said element, I challenge you to describe exactly how it is actually creating an unsavory element or damaging the people of Agentina. The guys I do business with are nice people. They are not stealing (in fact, they are helping people to realize the full value of their monetary possessions, quite the opposite to stealing in my opinion). They are not committing fraud, with the possible exception to the government in relation to not paying taxes, but that is hardly hurting anyone - no one would see the benefits of that money anyway due to the rather extreme corruption of the country, and my personal moral code allows interacting with such persons if violence and theft and other heinous crimes are not involved in such a specific case.

You may see that as a thin justification for doing something that you consider illegal and immoral, but that comes from your own personal moral code and that is what I will not validate as it conflicts with mine - what I consider to be a well-contructed and thoroughly thought out code that has been in the process of making for half a century. I consider myself to be a moral person and how you feel about what you consider to be possible kinks in my moral code cannot be my problem, as in no way am I hurting you with my actions, nor am I hurting the people of Argentina, government propaganda and and what I consider to be misinformed opinions of others to the contrary.

Which brings us to the crux of the matter.

Argentina as a governmental entity lies about a lot of things. They cheat and steal. It's all over the news, and I am not talking about anti-governmental propaganda issued by the Clarin. I'm not going to go into specifics, they have been talked about enough.

What is hurting the Argentine people are the horrible policies of this government. Not foreigners coming here and changing money at a rate the government doesn't like. In fact, as has been mentioned, the foreigners that come here and spend their money are helping the country, albeit in a relatively insignificant manner. In fact, the government is destroying businesses and creating more poverty, not foreigners who spend their money here at whatever rate they made their change.

What really hurt Argentina was the government's borrowing of money from outside entities and then doing everything they could to force those people into losing two-thirds of their investments if they ever wanted to see a dime of their money received. And the fact that that money was spent on social programs that could not work and that a large portion of that money was diverted into the pockets of friends and allies of the ruling class, makes their default and the complaint that the debt is "invalid", for me, completely without sympathy.

Now, if Argentina wants to become independent of the dollar, I have no problem with that whatsoever. If they want to create laws that say that all real estate transactions have to be completed in pesos, more power to them. If they decide they don't want to borrow money from outside sources and become beholden to those entities to pay the money back, I say good for them. But they do not have the right to tell me that my money, issued by the United States of America and accepted at a certain value around the world (with the exception of those who do not play fair), is worth less here, when I perform transactions between individuals. You certainly do not agree with that, but my moral code is quite satisfied.

By the way, if I have to pay something directly to the government in dollars, for some reason, I would have no problem doing so at the official rate, although it would hurt and certainly would not make me happy. That is the one place where I agree that people are indeed forced to follow the law - they choose to do business or not with the government, at the rate that the government is willing to exchange money. If that means that I have to leave because I choose not to business with the government at that rate, then so be it.

Perhaps I was a bit strong to say you are the subject of derision for accepting the edict of the government in this. However, what I feel is that you are a willing victim of theft and fraud if you do accept such restrictions when very few people do. Perhaps I should say I feel bad that you feel this way and I should definitely not make fun of you that.

I apologize for saying you are the subject of derision and lending weight to that with my statement.

 

[dennisr]

Yanquee go home and by the way, when you return please bring me an Apple widget...... Please

 

[kemer84]

Hello.

Anyone exchanging dollar at a cueva or at the blue rate is going against the Law, http://www.infoleg.gov.ar/infolegInternet/anexos/25000-29999/28133/texact.htm

So please, think twice before commiting a crime in Argentina.

Thank you.

 

[camberiu]

Hello.

Anyone exchanging dollar at a cueva or at the blue rate is going against the Law, http://www.infoleg.g...8133/texact.htm

So please, think twice before commiting a crime in Argentina.

Thank you.

Please, illegal and criminal are two different things. You can break the law without being a criminal. driving above the speed limit is breaking the law, but it is not a crime. It is against the law to ride a car without seatbelt or park on a non-parking area. Doing those things do not make one a criminal.
As far as I know, selling dollars on Florida is illegal, but it is far from being a criminal offense.

 

[Rich One]

IF they were to enforce the fine for Illegal Foreign exchanges of 10 times the amount the first time , the AFIP would be rich. If they enforce the 4 year prison sentence for the second infraction . Jail space would become scarce... Would foreigners be incarcerated...

 

[kemer84]

Please, illegal and criminal are two different things. You can break the law without being a criminal. driving above the speed limit is breaking the law, but it is not a crime. It is against the law to ride a car without seatbelt or park on a non-parking area. Doing those things do not make one a criminal.
As far as I know, selling dollars on Florida is illegal, but it is far from being a criminal offense.

A crime is an Unlawful activity, so you can end up in prision for up to 4 years as the Articulo 2º says, so if you end up in prision, you are a criminal...

 

[jp]

So please, think twice before commiting a crime in Argentina.

Does this law apply to the general public making private transactions? I thought this was specific to the practice of changing money for profit - making the activities of the cueva illegal, but not those who use them.