Sockhopper
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- Nov 16, 2008
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El Queso,
I think that you and I conceive of the world and this matter so differently that no consensus is possible between us. But that’s okay because that’s how it is. And I appreciate very much hearing your reasons in support of your view although I disagree with most of them as you do mine.
Your reasoning centres on the government in capital letters and a belief that foreigners shouldn’t feel obliged to comply with a law passed by a government that a portion of Argentina’s own citizens strongly criticizes or resists. Mine centres on the prevailing law of the place where one is and the obligation to comply with that, not on judging whether that law is wrong or whether or not it must have been passed by an incompetent government.
Once a law comes into force, it has its own life and scope of application unless and until it’s repealed, amended, judicially ‘read down’ or judicially declared unconstitutional. We live with roughly that format in most countries and in democracies we prize it because we attach it to everyone being subject to the same laws to the same full degree. To weaken that fundamental principle of democracy in one country would tend to weaken it in others. It’s very worth our while then to honour all the laws of any country that one is in.
When I’m given permission to be in a country that’s not mine, I receive the tangible benefit of being enabled to now experience it. With my acceptance of that benefit comes my obligation to conform with all its laws including those I don’t like. To actively defy any would be to disrespect how a foreign system developed and organizes itself so as to shape its existence and its goals and what its people can and can’t do in light of these. To break the kind of laws we’re talking about would require a foreigner to inflict his sense of cultural superiority upon other countries. As a visitor, new resident or expat who’s not a citizen, I don’t have the prerogative to act there in ways that suggest that people don’t have to conform with that nation’s laws while there! Freedom of exp<b></b>ression is not freedom of action.
When planning to visit or live in another country I ask myself what my capacity and threshold is likely to be in relation to honouring that country’s laws while I’m in it. I don’t want to sneak around in places because to do so would be tantamount to hurting my freedom to be happy. If some of those laws would conflict too onerously with my economic, social or political needs and I don’t see those restrictions which I’m obliged to obey being balanced by compensatory benefits, it’s my responsibility to not go or live there unless I can resolve these obstructions in legal ways. I can’t know everything in advance of going there and there are certain to be untoward surprises that I didn’t anticipate but later run up against. But once I’m there and should I feel forced to break a law or leave, in good faith I must leave.
For this reason, I respect those expats who conduct that assessment for themselves while in Argentina and who decide on balance to leave rather than feel miserable there, blame Argentines for their government or turn to that country’s underworld and the well-known activities of all such. On what basis could someone who chose to live there not leave in that scenario when our own countries have been coming down so hard on money-laundering this past decade and IF the cause of some foreigners’ dissatisfaction in Argentina concerns its not following or adopting the ways of our countries that some foreigners perceive as better?!
Assembling arguments as to why it’s okay, just, or even correct (!) to break a law in one country that disappoints you but not in another that’s more amenable to your doing what you want doesn’t seem principled to me because there is no principle that says a person can do whatever he can do if it benefits him personally.
The trap in feeling that one’s own country’s ways are superior is that this can lead to presuming that given time other countries with ‘potential’ (and that we might be considering relocating to) will also adhere to philosophies and theories that our own countries live by and promote. That is a recipe for disappointment and blaming that country if one doesn’t accept responsibility for having mistakenly thought that his long-held beliefs garnered in his country of birth or affiliation hold no or less sway in other countries.
The shocker to me is that latching onto what ‘must be superior’ in our view seems to not have worked even in some Western countries! New perspectives on what a single country’s goals should be and how its particular society, money and institutions are to operate are being tested by several countries. I’m seeing significant departures in how different countries are choosing to regulate compared to even just a decade ago, so much so that my former understanding of what I knew to expect and rely upon is not only outdated but gone. Instead, this seems to be a period of experimentation following economic failure and social changes that have rocked or mocked the underpinnings of our secure beliefs. It’s too early, I think, to pass judgment on what works and doesn’t and more changes are yet to come.
I’m not in a country to judge its law, government or politics if I’m not a citizen of it. All I can do is observe, learn, make errors and see if my goals succeed within it and how well I can adapt by conforming with its law. It’s definitely not my job to be concerned that not wanting to run afoul of Argentine law could apparently subject someone to derision on this forum as you say although I am shocked to learn of that perspective since foreigners and expats regularly report and scorn the lawless behaviours of Argentines! Also, the fact that I know portenos who don’t fall into any of the 4 categories you assign to those who object to the reliance upon the $US in Argentina is a fact separate from me. It’s not my role to question their or your beliefs or pick a side that 'must be' right.
But I do know that a nation having its own currency and its not being overtly tied to some other is one of the key attributes that lead a people to feel that they actually belong to a real nation. I think that’s something worth demonstrating one’s active respect for while in any foreign country. Wanting a country you’re in to behave like yours while simultaneously not showing that country’s laws the same level of respect you’d show your own country’s seriously makes me doubt that our values and approaches to problem-solving are superior.
I think that you and I conceive of the world and this matter so differently that no consensus is possible between us. But that’s okay because that’s how it is. And I appreciate very much hearing your reasons in support of your view although I disagree with most of them as you do mine.
Your reasoning centres on the government in capital letters and a belief that foreigners shouldn’t feel obliged to comply with a law passed by a government that a portion of Argentina’s own citizens strongly criticizes or resists. Mine centres on the prevailing law of the place where one is and the obligation to comply with that, not on judging whether that law is wrong or whether or not it must have been passed by an incompetent government.
Once a law comes into force, it has its own life and scope of application unless and until it’s repealed, amended, judicially ‘read down’ or judicially declared unconstitutional. We live with roughly that format in most countries and in democracies we prize it because we attach it to everyone being subject to the same laws to the same full degree. To weaken that fundamental principle of democracy in one country would tend to weaken it in others. It’s very worth our while then to honour all the laws of any country that one is in.
When I’m given permission to be in a country that’s not mine, I receive the tangible benefit of being enabled to now experience it. With my acceptance of that benefit comes my obligation to conform with all its laws including those I don’t like. To actively defy any would be to disrespect how a foreign system developed and organizes itself so as to shape its existence and its goals and what its people can and can’t do in light of these. To break the kind of laws we’re talking about would require a foreigner to inflict his sense of cultural superiority upon other countries. As a visitor, new resident or expat who’s not a citizen, I don’t have the prerogative to act there in ways that suggest that people don’t have to conform with that nation’s laws while there! Freedom of exp<b></b>ression is not freedom of action.
When planning to visit or live in another country I ask myself what my capacity and threshold is likely to be in relation to honouring that country’s laws while I’m in it. I don’t want to sneak around in places because to do so would be tantamount to hurting my freedom to be happy. If some of those laws would conflict too onerously with my economic, social or political needs and I don’t see those restrictions which I’m obliged to obey being balanced by compensatory benefits, it’s my responsibility to not go or live there unless I can resolve these obstructions in legal ways. I can’t know everything in advance of going there and there are certain to be untoward surprises that I didn’t anticipate but later run up against. But once I’m there and should I feel forced to break a law or leave, in good faith I must leave.
For this reason, I respect those expats who conduct that assessment for themselves while in Argentina and who decide on balance to leave rather than feel miserable there, blame Argentines for their government or turn to that country’s underworld and the well-known activities of all such. On what basis could someone who chose to live there not leave in that scenario when our own countries have been coming down so hard on money-laundering this past decade and IF the cause of some foreigners’ dissatisfaction in Argentina concerns its not following or adopting the ways of our countries that some foreigners perceive as better?!
Assembling arguments as to why it’s okay, just, or even correct (!) to break a law in one country that disappoints you but not in another that’s more amenable to your doing what you want doesn’t seem principled to me because there is no principle that says a person can do whatever he can do if it benefits him personally.
The trap in feeling that one’s own country’s ways are superior is that this can lead to presuming that given time other countries with ‘potential’ (and that we might be considering relocating to) will also adhere to philosophies and theories that our own countries live by and promote. That is a recipe for disappointment and blaming that country if one doesn’t accept responsibility for having mistakenly thought that his long-held beliefs garnered in his country of birth or affiliation hold no or less sway in other countries.
The shocker to me is that latching onto what ‘must be superior’ in our view seems to not have worked even in some Western countries! New perspectives on what a single country’s goals should be and how its particular society, money and institutions are to operate are being tested by several countries. I’m seeing significant departures in how different countries are choosing to regulate compared to even just a decade ago, so much so that my former understanding of what I knew to expect and rely upon is not only outdated but gone. Instead, this seems to be a period of experimentation following economic failure and social changes that have rocked or mocked the underpinnings of our secure beliefs. It’s too early, I think, to pass judgment on what works and doesn’t and more changes are yet to come.
I’m not in a country to judge its law, government or politics if I’m not a citizen of it. All I can do is observe, learn, make errors and see if my goals succeed within it and how well I can adapt by conforming with its law. It’s definitely not my job to be concerned that not wanting to run afoul of Argentine law could apparently subject someone to derision on this forum as you say although I am shocked to learn of that perspective since foreigners and expats regularly report and scorn the lawless behaviours of Argentines! Also, the fact that I know portenos who don’t fall into any of the 4 categories you assign to those who object to the reliance upon the $US in Argentina is a fact separate from me. It’s not my role to question their or your beliefs or pick a side that 'must be' right.
But I do know that a nation having its own currency and its not being overtly tied to some other is one of the key attributes that lead a people to feel that they actually belong to a real nation. I think that’s something worth demonstrating one’s active respect for while in any foreign country. Wanting a country you’re in to behave like yours while simultaneously not showing that country’s laws the same level of respect you’d show your own country’s seriously makes me doubt that our values and approaches to problem-solving are superior.
Would foreigners be incarcerated... 
