Bolsonaro takes office :/

[Pensador]

Then why do you worry about Bolsonaro? If you think most modern democracies are exposed to a single catastrophic point of failure, then our problems are much deeper and fundamental, and he is just a blip at that point. You should be raging against the whole system, not a president from a single country.

Trump Drump Dip Shit de Brazil is a threat to life on the planet. Why is that? You tell me.

 

[PoorSoul]

Why the focus on right-wing populism? It seems that left-wing populism is currently causing the greatest amount of suffering. Case in point would be Venezuela. Hell, left-wing populism is responsible for more deaths than about any thing in history. Case in point would be the great famines resulting in 50 millions deaths duet to left-wing populism in China.

Bolsonaro is not all that important. Far more concerning would be the police state being developed by the UK and China. That will have a far greater effect on society than any thing bolsonar will be able to change in brazil. And, police states and anti-free speech environments are far more damaging to any democracy than a guy who was legitimately elected in a constitutional republic.

 

[Somewhereinba]

Why the focus on right-wing populism? It seems that left-wing populism is currently causing the greatest amount of suffering. Case in point would be Venezuela. Hell, left-wing populism is responsible for more deaths than about any thing in history. Case in point would be the great famines resulting in 50 millions deaths duet to left-wing populism in China.

Bolsonaro is not all that important. Far more concerning would be the police state being developed by the UK and China. That will have a far greater effect on society than any thing bolsonar will be able to change in brazil. And, police states and anti-free speech environments are far more damaging to any democracy than a guy who was legitimately elected in a constitutional republic.

Agreed. No one talks about all the shit China is up to though.

 

[London2Baires]

Why the focus on right-wing populism? It seems that left-wing populism is currently causing the greatest amount of suffering. Case in point would be Venezuela. Hell, left-wing populism is responsible for more deaths than about any thing in history. Case in point would be the great famines resulting in 50 millions deaths duet to left-wing populism in China.

Bolsonaro is not all that important. Far more concerning would be the police state being developed by the UK and China. That will have a far greater effect on society than any thing bolsonar will be able to change in brazil. And, police states and anti-free speech environments are far more damaging to any democracy than a guy who was legitimately elected in a constitutional republic.

As I have said already, my concern in this post is about the risks faced by Brazil as it faces a global trend towards right wing populism within democracies.

If you can't see how important this is given that Brazil is the worlds fourth largest democracy, then I don't really know what to say to you.

You use the usual whataboutism to delegitimise the problem, as if multiple problems can't exist at the same time. You also give false equivalencies. Comparing Venezuela? That's not a left wing democracy, its an authoritarian regime with highly manipulated elections, masquerading as left wing polity, when in reality it's a populist kleptocracy.

We often see populist kleptocracies in latin america pay lip service to the left wing as nothing more than makeup to carry out their real objectives. They are also dangerous, sure, but they are also used as a talking point by the right to try and show how left wing policies are the real problem. That's risable and a straw man argument.

And China, sure, its a terrible polity, they have secret unpromulgated law, routinely torture and disappear dissidents etc. It's a great example for why we need to protect democracies from failing, as that's a the sort of authoritarianism that these charlatan populist demagogues are attracted to. Bolsonaro, Trump, and other populist right wing demagogues dont heap praise on leaders such as Dutarte et al by chance. They are clearly inclined away from democracy and towards totalitarianism.

And yes, sure, the UK has more restrictive and authoritarian surveillance than many dictatorial regimes. Very worrying, but where did it come from? It came from the very same xenophobic nationalist "we must protect our security we are under threat from enemies" type ideology which is commonplace in the sorts of movements that Bolsonaro exemplifies.

 

[PoorSoul]

You also give false equivalencies. Comparing Venezuela? That's not a left wing democracy, its an authoritarian regime with highly manipulated elections, masquerading as left wing polity, when in reality it's a populist kleptocracy.

Wrong. Venezuela is a leftist regime. You talk about the present while ignoring the past. Sure, it's elections today are not very legitimate. However, at one point they were legitimate and the current power structure evolved from democratic left-wing populism. What it is today is the evolution of the politics of a country that succumbs to such ideology.

where did it come from? It came from the very same xenophobic nationalist "we must protect our security we are under threat from enemies" type ideology

Certainly if your viewpoint is right-wing == surveillance or xenophobia, etc, then you are correct. However, that just does not match reality. Left-wing parties are also xenophobic usually using workers as the excuse or anti-globalism which occurs even in leftist movements.

What you are missing is that these things occur not due to some ideological left / right spectrum. They occur due to the worship of government by people in the form of blind statism. People who have been conditioned all their life that government is good, benevolent, and has interests aligned with the common man will support the giving of more power to the state.

The ceding of power to the state due to this naivety is when you see a transfer of individual liberties to the state. This is the root cause of the problem in the UK. Unfortunately, the people of the UK have lost all skepticism of their government and thus have signed a blood contract with the devil. Surveillance, lack of free speech, and a docile dumbed down public. Let's be honest, the UK is already an authoritarian regime with a democracy whose legitimacy is severely in question. After all, the foundation of any democracy is free exchange of ideas, which is impossible without first having free and uncensored speech.

 

[London2Baires]

Wrong. Venezuela is a leftist regime. You talk about the present while ignoring the past. Sure, it's elections today are not very legitimate. However, at one point they were legitimate and the current power structure evolved from democratic left-wing populism. What it is today is the evolution of the politics of a country that succumbs to such ideology.



Certainly if your viewpoint is right-wing == surveillance or xenophobia, etc, then you are correct. However, that just does not match reality. Left-wing parties are also xenophobic usually using workers as the excuse or anti-globalism which occurs even in leftist movements.

What you are missing is that these things occur not due to some ideological left / right spectrum. They occur due to the worship of government by people in the form of blind statism. People who have been conditioned all their life that government is good, benevolent, and has interests aligned with the common man will support the giving of more power to the state.

The ceding of power to the state due to this naivety is when you see a transfer of individual liberties to the state. This is the root cause of the problem in the UK. Unfortunately, the people of the UK have lost all skepticism of their government and thus have signed a blood contract with the devil. Surveillance, lack of free speech, and a docile dumbed down public. Let's be honest, the UK is already an authoritarian regime with a democracy whose legitimacy is severely in question. After all, the foundation of any democracy is free exchange of ideas, which is impossible without first having free and uncensored speech.

Some very interesting views here, I don't fully disagree but the devil is in the detail. I now have to go out though as I have a very busy day, but will respond with a bit more time later.

Thanks for the interesting detailed thought, makes a change from what usually happens in this sort of thread!

 

[PoorSoul]

If you can't see how important this is given that Brazil is the worlds fourth largest democracy, then I don't really know what to say to you.

Why would I see a non-issue as being important for the world's fourth largest democracy? Your premise is that this is an issue and that has not even been proven yet. As has already been pointed out to you Brazil has balance of powers and functioning institutions. Bolsonaro was legitimately elected. So, this is a huge win for democracy, if anything. If you are worried about his policies be glad his opposition controls the legislature and judges are slow to change. That is how it is designed to work in a functioning democracy so that impulses of the mob do not make abrupt change.

Certainly, if he was trying to ban guns like the left trying to do in the US or as Venezuela did in 2012 or as Germany did before they committed atrocities, then there would be big concern. As of now, Bolsonaro's only path to make abrupt changes in Brazil is through a revolution. A leader easing gun regulations is not likely one that is moving towards revolution. At least it has not been well correlated with that move in the past.

I do agree that "strongman" rhetoric is never good. However, on the spectrum of "who cares" to "we have an emergency" I do not view this rhetoric as that alarming given the context it is occurring in. If he starts an "anti-corruption" campaign targeting all his opponents, starts banning guns, and limiting free speech, then yes, we have a very big problem. Until then, I will reserve the alarmism.

 

[London2Baires]

Some more facts and analysis here, it's a somewhat longish article for today's attention spans. But for those who want to be informed, here we go! :

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entr...-democracy-threat_us_5c2a30c5e4b08aaf7a929cbb

 

[Bajo_cero2]

I find Bolsonaro to the left of Macri. He asks for protecting police who kills in a shooting in a country where narcos has Ak 47 while Bullrich encourage to kill from behind.

 

[Pensador]

Trump Drump Dip Shit de Brazil is a threat to life on the planet. Why is that? You tell me.

Well, I will answer this for you he wants to open more deforesting of the Amazon. The Amazon is known as the lungs of the planet. Kill that you kill us. This man and Brazil should be viewed as the greatest threats to life on this planet right now and should be dealt with as such.