Brutally Beaten in Recoleta

[jp]

I agree with the poster who said that a lot of crime is NOT reported in Argentina and that comparatively far MORE crime IS reported in the US. Of course that means that BA is really a much more dangerous city than even the statistics show.

Crime is notoriously difficult to quantify and measure accurately, reported crime is often just the tip of the iceberg.

The statistics posted earlier in this thread were based on survey results, which give a far more accurate picture of crime.

The original study looks pretty good (http://www.utdt.edu/download.php?fname=_125720005154633400.pdf) , although the findings reported in the paper are a little hysterical. Whilst October might have seen the third consecutive month where crime rose, August was the fifth consecutive month where violent crime fell. So was the city getting safer? Seems unlikely, and without background information showing what the typical annual cycles are it would be unwise to read too much into that.

But "3 month consecutive rise" makes a good headline, and scaring people has always been a good media money maker. BA isn't a safe city, but media hysteria really isn't helping anything or anyone, except opportunistic politicos and the media themselves.

 

[orwellian]

I was here through the Menem period and it was a LOT safer. The crime problem DID explode as a result of the economic crisis, so I have to agree that it is not all the fault of the Kirchners though they have definitely made it worse with their permissive attitude.

Not according to the statistics. Maybe you perceived it as being less crime because of the media reporting being bias towards the neo-liberal Menem?

This is an fascinating thread for so many reasons. Mostly because I'm a few days from finally landing down there, and one of my original concerns was the whole getting kidnapped at gunpoint and having my ring finger mailed to my parents. This thread is making it clear to me that BA is a much more dangerous place than I originally gave it credit for.

Robberies are the main issue here. And statistically it is as dangerous here as in Spain and I don't hear anyone being afraid of going there.

I remember reading a funny post a while back about expats trying to come up with a reason to picket. Perhaps this would be a good place to start.
...
My question to the veteran expats down there is this... Have I lost my mind? Is the idea of gathering and organizing in an effort to make a difference worthwhile?

Yes you have a lost your mind. As long as not any neo-liberal takes power crime should go down eventually. It takes a while for to sort out a country that just went bankrupt a few years ago and that is still paying back their debt. Picketing is not going to do anything to improve the situation.

 

[bloody_bloo]

The more I read about Argentina the more I find that the problems date back to the neo-liberal era. But the majority of the posters here on the forum always blame the current president for it. I really don't understand how you people reason.

I completely agree with that last. But something I learned in all this years is that statistics are manipulated in ways you can say opposite things regarding a same fact. It only depends in the size of the sample, how you pick the sample and if your opinion is negative or positive to begin with.

For example, a user some comments above said:

*** Only 1 in every 135 crimes ends with the criminal being sent to jail, according to Government figures.
....
Bearing in mind that I was told this refers to "proper" crimes (not minor things like a parking ticket and some such) and the UKs population of 61 million means that there are six persons per crime, or put another way, 1 criminal per six persons.

You can manipulate a real fact and turn it the way around exaggerate like above, one criminal per six persons? So criminals only commit a crime once?

The other common way to manipulate opinion is by changing policy about how you sample, the US and UK have a record on doing that with unemployment statistics.

The process is simple: Fact -> Shape the sample to my convenience -> Statistics and math -> Some lousy inductive logic process like above -> Finally Newspaper Headline.

 

[SaraSara]

I find "pandulf's" post realistic and refreshingly honest. Political correctness is an alien concept in Argentina, where a spade is called a spade and a brown-skinned man in a dirty T-shirt is called a "villero".

In my view, going along with muggers isn't always the best way to go. Recently, my neighbor was held at gunpoint while getting out of her car in front of her home. The two attackers (in their twenties) told her to keep quiet and get into the house.

She keeps no valuables in her house, but feared the robbers would not believe that, and would torture her to disclose the hiding place of things she did not actually have. So she decided to risk being shot on the sidewalk, hoping a neighbor would hear the shots and call an ambulance.

She started screaming her head off and lights went on in several houses, her next door neighbor looked out of his window, and a neighbor across the street came to his front gate to see what the commotion was all about. The attackers panicked, jump into their car, and fled.

I believe that criminals count on their victims getting paralyzed by fear, and they probably get away at the first sign of trouble. Unless they are high, in which case they are likely to shoot even when the victim is doing exactly as they say.

If I vanish from this forum, it may be because I, too, screamed my head off while robbed....!

Sara

The point is that people who live here want practical advice that might save them a lot of trouble and actually save their lives. Take your academic boilerplate finger-wagging elsewhere. No one assigned you to be political officer on this forum. And if you have doubts about the relationship between race and criminality, check out black crime rates in NY.

In Argentina you're not likely to get assaulted by old ladies in Recoleta, Recoleta older men in English suits, or blond haired blue-eyed teenagers of German descent. More likely than not your assailants are going to be young and brown, with certain kinds of clothes and body language, and people better be wise to that. Many Argentinians take precautions about Peruvians for example. Is that "racist" or is it just good policy? I've heard fewer bad things about Bolivians here, and even some good things, so I don't think race is what motivates Argentinians to say this. But if it is, so what? What's worse, being called "racist" by dimwit internet warriors, or being dead?

For the original post, sorry this happened to you I walk at night in areas like that all the time and never had the slightest problem. Always been under the impression BA is a mostly safe city. Anyway, you might want to look into some pepper spray or something as a means of self-defense.

One more thing: to all the people who say "never resist" when you're being mugged...that's bad advice. You have to take it on a case by case basis. There are cases when not resisting or not running can cost you a beating or worse. I would say this...NEVER get in the car if there's a kidnapping attempt...no matter what. I would guess you're safer getting shot on the street.

 

[Moxon]

A voice of reason in the wilderness, thankyou JP.

 

[arty]

Why do you want to risk your life attacking the robbers? Just give them what they ask for and walk away.

fuk that.... you try to rob me, you better have a gun and shoot me. otherwise you will see what some street justice feels like.

i have yet to be bothered here (knock on wood) but then again I don't look like a victim. I've been jumped back in high school but 5 puerto ricans and mugged in pittsburgh by some black guy. That was before I got that "mean" look to me, lol.

 

[bloody_bloo]

I was here through the Menem period and it was a LOT safer. The crime problem DID explode as a result of the economic crisis, so I have to agree that it is not all the fault of the Kirchners though they have definitely made it worse with their permissive attitude.

Domingo Cavallo was a former head administrator in the National Central Bank during 1982. He did one of the most despicable things in the last 30 years, that helped to condemn economically this country. He allowed the transfer of 5.500.000.000 USD of private debts to the state. This huge favor reached mainly right wings that today oppose this government. He threw the tax payers money right in to establishment pockets.

And guess what? Menem brought him back from the dead just to continue the good work and privatize most of public sectors. How in the world would the media throw sh*T to him? Wake up.

 

[orwellian]

fuk that.... you try to rob me, you better have a gun and shoot me. otherwise you will see what some street justice feels like.

i have yet to be bothered here (knock on wood) but then again I don't look like a victim. I've been jumped back in high school but 5 puerto ricans and mugged in pittsburgh by some black guy. That was before I got that "mean" look to me, lol.

It's those missing teeth that does it

 

[arty]

It's those missing teeth that does it

the shaved head helps too!

 

[dgflyer]

I am about the same size as you and black(light brown), and I have never had a problem there. I have been to BA 6 times now. I think you have to take what precautions you can, don't be totally disarmed by the charm of the city and the people you meet. Keep your wallet in your front pocket, carry minimal cash, know where you are giong in advance, don't be a hero/superman and fight the robbers (hand it over and let them get away from you as fast as possible), dress and behave like a local..not some dippy tourist on vacation with a big expensive camera around your neck. On Florida street: ignore the begging children...their parents are never far away and other who mean you harm can see where you keep your money if you decide to give the kid something. Be as smart as you can. I feel more at ease in BA than I do in New York City. Two days in NYC is one day too long.

This is an fascinating thread for so many reasons. Mostly because I'm a few days from finally landing down there, and one of my original concerns was the whole getting kidnapped at gunpoint and having my ring finger mailed to my parents. This thread is making it clear to me that BA is a much more dangerous place than I originally gave it credit for. (This coming from a 6' 1" 200lb. dude who lives in Brooklyn now, and went to school a few feet from the Cass Corridor in downtown Detroit).

I figured that if I have gone 35 years between those two places without so much as a scratch, then BA shouldn't be too much of a threat to me. However, I am starting to re-think my thinking. It's not so much that I am concerned about some 15-year-old "brown" kids, but because there is nothing more dangerous than a place where the police have no interest in policing. This sounds like a sad situation, and one that I am suddenly not looking forward to dealing with.

Anyway, I did want to make a few points and pose a few questions to the wily veterans of this forum and BA.

To start, I just wanted to say to anyone who is trying to decide whether or not they should buy some sort of device to protect themselves, don't even hesitate. The idea that it is somehow wise to not practice (or at least prepare) some sort of self-defense is just bad advice. Obviously one would want to use some common sense and not use pepper spray against some guy with a gun... but to suggest that leaving the house without any protection at all is a better idea than having some sort of security is not only bad advise, its irresponsible advise. If you are a woman living in BA or any other potentially dangerous city, please go get a whistle and some pepper spray ASAP.

I remember reading a funny post a while back about expats trying to come up with a reason to picket. Perhaps this would be a good place to start.

In most neighborhoods in Detroit or New York where crime is on the rise, and the police are either useless or not available, communities are organizing themselves to police themselves. They post signs that let thugs know that it is not OK to
commit crimes in their neighborhoods, they organize neighborhood watches and agree to keep an eye out for one another. It sounds to me like this might be a good idea for certain neighborhoods within BA. I do know this, if the police wont police, and the people wont police, then the punk-ass kids will win. However, even a small effort of self-policing can work wonders in terms of discouraging them from operating in a given area. I have not been on this forum for very long, but one thing that I have noticed is that most people on here seem to be genuinely interested in helping others, and for the most part, everyone is very civil. Maybe I'm an optimist, but I would think it possible to make a difference.

My question to the veteran expats down there is this... Have I lost my mind? Is the idea of gathering and organizing in an effort to make a difference worthwhile?

I'd be interested to find out.

Cheers!- Robert

PS- I hope you're feeling better Matt.