Buenos Aires in or out

[earlyretirement]

I am 100% sure, things are not the same once you are married and have kids.

In a hypothetical situation, if I was married of today with 2 kids and a loving wife, this is what I would do :-

Live in a new continent every 2-3 years. The idea would be to give exposure to my children of different languages and cultures. I give a LOT of importance to learning new languages as kid. I would have them spend at least 3-4 years in South America, 3-4 years in USA, 3-4 years in Europe and 3-4 years in Asia ( in some very very poor country).

Crazy as it may sound but having traveled the whole world many times over, I feel every place has its issues and you would always miss something in some place.

Women in US, especially in NYC ( where I spent lot of time last few years) suck big time. Can not imagine living there anymore.

In principle that sounds great about living in a new continent every 2-3 years but in realistic real life situations, that isn't so convenient. We have several residences around the world so we do give our children exposure to other cultures, languages and countries. Our kids already have more stamps in their passport then most adults.

However, once they start school it's difficult for them to live in a new country every few years. They long for stability and normalcy. They want to be around their friends from school and get comfortable in their home.

We will always give them culture and they speak two languages and we probably will start a third language when they get older. But you can't imagine what it's like to be a parent until you're in that situation.

Life TOTALLY changes once you have kids. The responsibility and priorities totally change. You can have a game plan all mapped out in your head or on paper but I guarantee you it will totally change.

It's ok the first few years doing what you suggested and our kids have lived in and traveled to many countries. But once school age starts, it's not practical or convenient at all.

 

[earlyretirement]

Personally, I think the US is a much cheaper place to live and work. I am not from the US and only visit it for business or vacation. During my last visit, I went to San Diego for the first time and was really surprised how cheap it was.. hotel, eating out, and of course shopping. NY on the other hand was more pricey.

Yes. That is totally true. Southern California in general is a paradise! Great weather, great beaches, very safe, sunny days and happy people for the most part. Sure California has it's problems, the State is broke and the job market sucks. But if you have a stable job and no debt it doesn't get much better, IMHO.

There are a variety of restaurants and as you mentioned, you can eat VERY well and very cheap in much of Southern California, especially San Diego.

Shopping anywhere in the USA seems like a dream for Porteños and everything is cheap. Clothing, shoes, electronics all are super cheap in the USA.

Absolutely many cities in the USA right now are cheaper than it is in Buenos Aires when you factor in cost of housing, cost of food, cost of medical insurance.

The only thing you have to consider is many cities are very spread out so public transportation isn't good like in NYC. Places like San Diego, LA, Dallas, Miami and many other cities you have to have a car. Whereas in Buenos Aires you wouldn't need a car.

But you are absolutely correct that you can live in the USA for as cheap as in Buenos Aires all things considered.

 

[Ceviche]

Absolutely many cities in the USA right now are cheaper than it is in Buenos Aires when you factor in cost of housing, cost of food, cost of medical insurance.
. Places like San Diego, LA, Dallas, Miami and many other cities you have to have a car.

100% true!

@ Early Retirement, would it be prudent to invest in property in USA?

And if I to make a choice where would it be better for returns, USA or BA.

And which city in USA.

Budget 200K.

 

[earlyretirement]

100% true!

@ Early Retirement, would it be prudent to invest in property in USA?

And if I to make a choice where would it be better for returns, USA or BA.

And which city in USA.

Budget 200K.

I honestly believe this there was no better time to start buying in the USA than last year. This year is still ok but prices are already starting to move up.

As far as where the better place to buy property. IMHO you have to consider all the factors. Are you living to buy as investment or to live? Are you renting an expensive place every month? Lots of things to consider.

If it's a straight question of investment play, I think it's a no brainer and the USA is a much better play as long as you're buying in the right area.

Buenos Aires real estate is still pricey. I don't think now is a good/wise time to buy with all the uncertainty with the country, the laws, the restrictions, the controls. Literally nothing is positive about the country now. An eventual crash is likely in the next few years.

Sure, people can argue that real estate won't crash which is probably true. But you know what? It definitely won't rise too much with everything going on. In fact, there is a far greater chance real estate prices in Buenos Aires will decline rather in increase over the next 2 years.

So my thinking is why buy now?? Sure, if you're the type that will live there permanently then sure it can make sense if you find the right property. But it certainly isn't cheap.

My buddy just sold a 2 bedroom 2 bathroom property in Puerto Madero just a few short months ago for almost a million dollars.

Look at this gorgeous mansion you could have bought in San Diego last year for just over $1 million.

http://www.redfin.com/CA/San-Diego/8282-Top-O-The-Morning-Way-92127/home/6481654

Notice the previous owner invested over $2 million into the place! So the patient value investor that picked it up for $1.1 million got a steal! You can't even build a new house for anywhere near that price! You're 15 minutes from the beach.

To boot, the monthly HOA fees are only $480 a month. My buddy in Puerto Madero was paying $1,300 US a month on expenses! Plus his ABL bills were HUGE and he had 1.25% annual property taxes a year. So where is the value in that??

I only gave an example above but I'm not saying it's the best investment play out there. But if you're going to buy as a capital appreciation play, DEFINITELY the USA is a much better play. In desirable cities, especially close to the beach, prices will pass the bubble prime prices I'd say over the next decade. Prices bottomed out, IMHO.

Not too much inventory in desirable areas at all. But if you are closely watching the market in many cities in the USA you can find some desirable investment plays.

http://www.redfin.com/CA/La-Jolla/5410-La-Jolla-Blvd-92037/unit-A209/home/6650919

Here is another example of an owner that got killed! He bought it for $847,000 at the top of the market in 2005. It's for sale for $399,000. Granted this will probably not go this cheap as it's a short sale. And also I'd stay clear of this building as the builder did a horrible job building it. But much of the new construction that went up in Buenos Aires have the same problem (or will) that are piss poor construction as this building.

http://www.voiceofsandiego.org/housing/article_8a26ee30-7da9-11df-9cd4-001cc4c03286.html

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/the-scene/real-estate/Suing-Over-Construction.html

The only difference is in the USA the court system works. In Buenos Aires it doesn't.

I just don't think anyone should be rushing to buy real estate in Buenos Aires now. My feeling is why not stay in a holding pattern and see how things turn out? See if there are more restrictions, see if there are more controls.

Again, I'm NOT saying real estate prices are going to crash in Buenos Aires. Because I don't believe they will. But I just don't see anything in the near future or any impetus to make prices go up either.

Don't get me wrong. There are benefits to owning in Buenos Aires. I own an apartment in both Recoleta and Palermo and I stay in it free when I go to Buenos Aires for work or vacation and it's very convenient and it makes sense for me. But I also bought when prices were lower than they are now. I do enjoy owning there but I'm NOT a buyer today with everything going on in Argentina.

My 2 cents.

 

[chris]

In my opinion, it's not a bad place for retirees with a US$ income despite the inflation and other serious problems. Since the rapid increase in the parallel rate of exchange, the cost of living is not high with US$. Health ins cost and medical expenses are moderate/low. Restaurants and local transportation costs are low.
In addition to the lowered cost of living, BA is a vibrant city full of art, culture, and educated people most of whom manage to maintain an equanimity, even a sense of humor, about the country's quirky problems. For an urban environment BA is still a good place to expat.

Let's consider a few RETIREE issues for Americans:

Medical care in the US is 80% covered by Medicare. The remaining 20% can covered by an inexpensive supplemental insurance policy. That policy will be a LOT cheaper than Argentine medical insurance for people 65+. Also consider that most plans will not admit people that age to begin with.

Transportation: Every US city I can think of provides FREE public transportation for seniors. My mother, for example, can travel anywhere where she lives for FREE. She can ride GOOD suburban trains for $1 and she is entitled to a mini-van service that will pick her up and take her anywhere in the city for $4. Her helper travels free if my mother has a doctor's appointment.

Food? If she wants, my mother can have a wholesome full course lunch for $1 at the local Senior Center.

Many cultural institutions in the US offer seniors major discounts which are not available in Buenos Aires. Pick up the phone and a Senior can reserve a subsidized $25 orchestra seat for the Metropolitan Opera -- just one example.

There are many other examples of Senior services, free or very cheap in the US that don't exist here. And I think that those discounts that DO exist in Argentina will not be easily given to foreigners. I really think it is not true that BA is a desirable retirement destination.

 

[earlyretirement]

Chris I think you make excellent points about retiree issues.

A few years ago I think Buenos Aires was a FABULOUS place to retire. Especially after the last financial crash. It was dirt cheap, salaries were super low, real estate was cheap.

People gripe and moan about medicare care in the USA. I admit there is much to be improved upon but honestly I'm paying about the same as I did in Buenos Aires with OSDE for my family. And I have an excellent plan in the USA. OSDE and all the other top programs from what I hear have gotten much more expensive. I heard it's gone up with inflation so I assume each year it's going up at least 20% to 25% or more.

I believe many of the medical insurance plans in Buenos Aires can ban you over 60 years old if they want. I think if you start before then, they won't kick you out but what if you're already over 60-65?

As far as transportation goes, many cities have excellent public transportation, especially on the East Coast. Other cities not so much. There are great programs in the USA for the elderly.

In Buenos Aires buses and subways are still dirt cheap. What I LOVE about Buenos Aires is the elderly are still walking around in their 70's and beyond! So vibrant even at an old age. I think that's one of the things I really admire about the city.

Food is NOT cheap in Argentina, especially Buenos Aires. In fact, I'd argue that it's more expensive than the USA for the most part with horrible selection and variety of food. You can eat very well in the USA for not too much money if you want to.

And as Chris mentioned, tons and tons of food programs for the elderly out there in the USA.

I'm not saying that retirement would be bad in Buenos Aires because I do plan to spend a few months out of the year in Buenos Aires when I fully retire.

The great thing in Buenos Aires is many of the elderly there own their own places. I know tons of people in their 60s, 70s, 80s and even 90s that all own their places in BA. They get some kind of pension that covers their food and their expenses. For the most part they are still fairly independent but almost all of them have a helper to clean, cook, go to the grocery store for them if they want. But I admire the spirit of independence for much of the elderly in Buenos Aires.

I think the key is if you have a paid off place in BA. If not, I don't think it's such a bargain or affordable.

Sure, they have free public healthcare but the public hospitals are not a thing of beauty and no way I'd want to see my grandmother in one of these places getting healthcare.

There are upsides and downsides to retiring in Buenos Aires. Definitely having US dollars will help but you still have to face the tremendous annual inflation and red tape, restrictions and controls.

 

[chris]

I agree that it's best not to sell now. Wait and see what happens. My fear, though, is that the electorate is getting increasingly ignorant and could support a Cristina government forever. Extending voting rights to non citizens and kids will only make it worse.

I don't know who expats here hang out with but my Argentine friends (mostly professionals, middle class or better) are very discouraged. Some would leave in a flash if they could.

 

[earlyretirement]

Oh I wasn't saying it's not best to SELL now. My point is it's best not to BUY now. I think if you can sell now for a good price then that would be great if you can sell.

I have several friends that recently sold, including one American friend that sold his flat yesterday and he is SO very happy! Sales are still happening. Just at a very slow pace.

I also worry about Cristina trying to stay in office forever ala Chavez.

I agree about people being very discouraged. I'd love to hear about locals that are happy with the current situation or optimistic?? Heck, even the cheerleaders on this board from yesteryear mostly are gone now.

 

[chris]

Early Retirement,
You are right, after 60 it is hard to impossible to get into Argentine health plans and they are EXPENSIVE at that age. A lot of the readers here are in their 20's or 30's and have NO idea how expensive these plans are for the elderly. I repeat: MEDICARE is FREE and covers 80% of costs. The remaining 20% is covered by health insurance that is a LOT cheaper than what a retired person would have to pay in BA IF he/she were allowed to enter. And guess what: MEDICARE, unless Obama messes it up, allows you tom use the BEST hospitals in the US if you want. My mother will get cataract surgery and it is going to be at one of the world's LEADING hospitals. It will not cost her anything.

PUBLIC TRANSPORT: From Boston to Washington, all East Coast cities have extensive transportation systems mostly with new or relatively new buses and rail vehicles. In some cases state of the art, a far cry from BA. And the price for seniors: FREE. Free is cheaper than BA. Many US municipalities provide vans for people where public transit doesn't exist or where the person is handicapped. I believe usually free.

COST OF MAINTAINING an apartment in BA: Depends. I have high "expensas". ABL and utilities have soared. Not sure BA is any longer cheaper than living in an apartment in major US cities.

If you are in good health, BA can be a good place for a retiree for a few months of the year but YEAR ROUND? I beg to differ with those who say it is. My mother has made many trips to BA and we have discussed all these matters. Just from the standpoint of facilities for the elderly, the US is far more advanced.

 

[LostinBA]

I saw an article in utube today that mentioned that many americans are moving to Argentina. Is there an inflow of americans moving to argentina or does everybody want to leave?

At first take of this thread I got all excited thinking In-N-Out was coming to BA. Thanks for the let-down.