Buenos Aires Is More Expensive Than New York, London, Madrid

The number of Americans moving back home is unbelievable. People who just graduated college and can't find jobs, people who had been living on their own for a few years but move back to their parents' place because they lost their jobs. The world is a rough place right now. Our parents (assuming you are 25- 45) had it a lot easier when they graduated/ got married. Healthcare and student loans alone are a huge burden that shouldn't have to be that way but corrupt politicians allow it.

The whole point of this thread was to talk about the article and I think it's clear now that as I said, it's not fair to compare if you're not going to compare everything.

I am not sure its clear at all. Here they have done a comparison of comparable products. Kind of like a big mac index.
Did you know that the government used to keep the price of the big mac artificially low here so as to perform better in the big mac index?

Yes, I agree that student loans can be a huge burden, but you do realise that many of the better universities here are private? Do you know anyone that goes to the UBA? The standard is really slipping. In addition, its very difficult to get a professional job here (and very very difficult in the interior). Plus, if you do find one you will probably take home about 3k pesos (less than US 400 a month) as a graduate. Thats USD 100 a week!

I think in terms of healthcare you may be getting a bit US specific. From where I come from there is free healthcare available widely and it is fine.

Have you tried the public health care out in Argentina? Private is good but on the public, I think I will pass.
 
Even at official rate, $100 (US) buys about three days worth of food in Australia. And you have to eat it within three days as, thanks to the Coles/Woolworths monopoly, any fruit or vegetables you buy have been frozen for the last six months pre-sale and basically self-destruct as you pass through the checkouts.

Food is expensive in Aust I agree! I think before I left I was spending about USD/AUD 180 a week. Here, I spend about AR$ 600 a week, say USD/AUD 120 but thats buying mostly local products and generally the quality isnt as good. If I wanted to by the decent, imported stuff I would be spending a heap more.

Have you tried buying fruit and vegies in the supermarkets here? Dont worry about them lasting only 3 days, 50% of the fruit/vegies on the shelves are already rotten. Thats why every1 buys at the verdulerias which are much cheaper and better quality than the supermarkets, but the quality is still average and if your getting 3 days your doing well.
Compared to Australia, New Zealand, or London, BA offers incredible value. Compared to Toulouse it's a bit closer but BA still shades it.

Couple of things K and I factor in: a trip to the theatre or, say, any Australian major city's symphony orchestra (that are not much chop by international standards I might add), costs us minimum $60 Aus (say $50 US atm) for the theatre each and Aus $80 each for the orchestra. that's three or four hundred pesos, each, for a night out. Without drinks or parking. And the venue is some ugly contemporary thing, certainly no Teatro Colon. No standing tickets for the less wealthy. Whereas here, we were at Carmen last week for about 20 bucks between us. Had a bottle of Chandon beforehand for ten dollars. Same brand in Australia is 25. (A bit more pleasant in Oz, I concede.) And don't get me started on a restaurant meal and all the free galleries here.

Totally agree, anything locally culture wise is a lot cheaper here (and the free stuff is great). But, its a pretty low proportion of your salary and many people dont use it, plus in 90% of the country outside of Capital Federal where 37 million / 40 million live there isnt that much that much to offer.

Re drinks, you can drink local stuff here much cheaper (quilmes, fernet etc) but if you want to drink some decent beers / spirits even though the alcohol in Australia is ridiculously expensive due to high import taxes here you wont be too much better off.

Parking? Theres a good chance if you park your car on the side of the road here, when you go to pick it up it will be gone/burnt/smashed/robbed.

Otherwise, to pay for a parking lot where you car is more secure its about USD 250 a month (to rent) or USD 25k-USD 35k (to buy).
 
I am not sure its clear at all. Here they have done a comparison of comparable products. Kind of like a big mac index.
Did you know that the government used to keep the price of the big mac artificially low here so as to perform better in the big mac index?

Yes, I agree that student loans can be a huge burden, but you do realise that many of the better universities here are private? Do you know anyone that goes to the UBA? The standard is really slipping. In addition, its very difficult to get a professional job here (and very very difficult in the interior). Plus, if you do find one you will probably take home about 3k pesos (less than US 400 a month) as a graduate. Thats USD 100 a week!

I think in terms of healthcare you may be getting a bit US specific. From where I come from there is free healthcare available widely and it is fine.

Have you tried the public health care out in Argentina? Private is good but on the public, I think I will pass.

I know a bunch of people who have recently gone to UBA, as well as a lot of professors there. I would say it compares quite favorably to many US state schools- Certainly in the areas I am familiar with, art, design, textiles, architecture- UBA is very good, as good as the best US state schools. I visit and speak in colleges in the USA pretty often, I see declining quality, a move to part time hourly professors, and the closing of departments and workshops everywhere. My wife had an UBA student as an assistant this winter, and she was much better prepared for working in the real world of her field (Indumenteria) than any similar US students we have hired over the years. In addition, I have been meeting more and more people who teach in other Argentine universities, in La Plata, Rosario, and other places- and, again, they are smart, current in their subjects, and produce students who are well educated and engaged. I know less about secondary public education here, but I certainly know lots of adult argentines who went thru public schools here who are literate, educated, and on the ball.

As for health care here- certainly, many people I know have private insurance, but I know of several examples of people who needed immediate care, for accidents or other sudden health problems, and went to public hospitals or clinics in BsAs, and got immediate, free, and quite good care. I have just emerged from the teenage years of my somewhat accident prone son, and spent a LOT of time in US emergency rooms over the last 20 years- and I think that, based on my experience, the Argentine equivalents are just as good, but free. You cannot imagine how much a cut leg or a broken arm costs in the USA- easily several thousand dollars. I had a friend in January have a similar incident here, and his emergency care, and follow up visits, all free, were very professional.

Certainly, certain things in Buenos Aires are priced and must be evaluated by world standards, regardless of local income. There is no question that a new delivery van will not be priced cheaper here, just because wages are less, than in germany, but, similarly, the wages in a west african country are way lower than in Buenos Aires, and the Mercedes van is still the same price.
International commodities are pretty much the same price everywhere.
Buying power locally, however, is pretty good for housing, transportation, and food. Not so good for clothing, although, personally, I have had more Zara clothes fall apart faster than locally made stuff. I find Argentine designer stuff to be better made than global consumer priced clothing, and quite cheap compared to designer clothes in the USA- I wear some of my Hermano Estebecorena clothes daily, and they wear as well, and last as long, as anything I can get in the US. I wear my Portero khakis that I bought in Once, they are similar in quality to Dickies, but much cheaper. I think it depends on what you buy.
 
As far as I am concerned my colleagues that have come out of the UBA are not very well prepared at all, and here I am talking about business fields. And all they do is complain about the falling standards of the UBA (and here we are talking about probably the best public university in the country). In Tucumán for example, it is widely regarded the largest public university, Universidad Nacional de Tucumán (public) is inferior to its private counterpart (UNSTA).

Why do you think the wealthy Argentines study outside of the country and pay exhorbitant international school fees?

Yes many people you know have private health care because they have to. Like I mentioned I pay over 300 pesos a month (which isnt much I guess) for something I never use. I wasnt going to be country specific and I know Americans complain about the US health system, but in Australia I dont need private health care. The public health system is actually quite good.

LIke I said, I didnt want to get country specific but lets look at an example, the median income in Australia is approx AUD 70k (gross), which works out to be about AUD 4,5k per month in the hand (ie net of income taxes, superannuation/pension etc) and probably at the moment about USD 4k per month. Which is about AR$ 22k at the official. Thats probably about 3-4 times the average salary here. There is no way Buenos Aires is 3-4 times cheaper. And, thats not even taking account inflation which eates away at your buying power and the fact getting a loan is impossible.

Try and tell some porteños (or worse still Argentines from the interior) that their buying power / cost of living here is better than where you came from and see what they think. I just can´t believe how you could come to that conclusion when the median/average wage here is probably about 5k-6k pesos (and thats in Buenos Aires).
 
The "median" income where I live is about $20,000 dollars per annum below Australia- and most people I know who are not doctors or lawyers do not earn the median, but much less.
But, unlike you, I dont know many people in "business". I know plenty of people in the US who have their own businesses, in many diverse fields- and most earn far less than your average Aussie, I guess.

I am not stating that Argentina is some sort of magical wonderland where everybody is happy. Certainly, there are serious structural problems with the economy, and an odd, local tariff and protection system means imports are more expensive than most other countries.

What I am saying is that in the USA, where I live part time, things are not all roses and dumplings either- we have NO universal health care, very expensive education, very little public transit , and we have had wage stagnation for thirty years now. Most new jobs in the USA are part time, and offer no benefits of any kind, health, pension, or otherwise.

Yes, I can buy endless quantities of very cheap chinese consumer goods, which are of dubious quality, and yes, there is a surfeit of material goods, particularly large cars, large tv sets, and i phones, many of which are available used pretty cheaply.

But in many areas, Argentina is at least even with much of the USA, IF you are in the 75% or so of the population that is making low wages and have no savings or assets. Certainly, it is easier to accumulate expensive crap in the USA. I am unsure if that is directly correlatable to standard of living. I eat better, cheaper, in Argentina. I have more fun, cheaper, in Argentina.
Direct, salary to salary, I couldnt say definitively that Argentina is better- but I know that my friends in Argentina live as well as many of my friends in the USA, and generally have far less debt- much of the good life in the USA is financed by borrowing- borrowing that, in Argentina, is not really possible, with virtually no student loans, car loans, or home mortgages.

I certainly know Argentines who studied abroad, but, conversely, I know people from other countries who study in Argentina.

Is Argentina the promised land? Of course not. But it is a reasonable place to live for many people, and the horrible violence, poverty, and terrible health that we see in the lower classes in the USA are largely absent there- and yes, I am aware of Villas. Ever been to Detroit?
 
I was only trying to keep it to discussing prices/purchasing power etc. It just really gets on my nerves when expats talk about how cheap it is down here & how their money goes such a long way, when I see graduates in my office (that have studied for 5 years) taking home about USD 150 a week (at the official), plus seeing their wage being eaten away by 30% inflation, living at their parents house in the provincia (and probably having to for the next 10 years), travelling 2 hours to and from work in 3rd world quality public transport and if they haven´t finished uni yet many leave home at 6:30am and dont get home till close to midnight. And, these are the lucky ones that have managed to land a good professional job in a reputable multi-national. Don´t even get me started on what its like in the interior.
 
Here's my take on it. As soon as I saw an infograph that looked like it was from a paper I knew it was going to show the Clarin logo at some point.
Expecting Clarin to do a fair/balanced cost of living article is like expecting a balanced piece about Obama from FOX, or the real inflation rate from the government.

I'm not a CFK fan, I don't know enough about her/K/anti-K politics to have an informed opinion, but it's not rocket science to know Clarin is going to shit on anything they can to make her/government look bad, and in turn for people like my pro-K friend to say silliness like "Inflation is around 10%"

Now, that aside, my biggest problem with the piece is that fake "coffee", potato chips, and chicken nuggets are not staples of a good, let alone average human diet wherever one lives. Now, that being said, in many countries/cities not listed these things are either the same price or more expensive. I was living in Toronto prior to moving here to BsAs the "coffee" was about USD $4.99, potato chips $3.99-$4.19, and chicken nuggets $7.99-$9.99, each with an additional 13% VAT on top of the prices.

Also, something to take in to consideration is I was renting a room, in an apartment with 2 other people and it was $625.00 a month, subway/bus was $3.00, commuter train was $9.00 for a 60 KM ride, a gallon of milk was $4.29, and cellphone service, albeit it MUCH more reliable, was at least $65.00 + tax.

Finally, we live in Buenos Aires. It's expensive to live in the largest city of ANY country, and I've been to London, Paris, and New York and I can say from my experience from going to all 4 including Buenos Aires this city is cheaper to live in for damn sure.

I will give Clarin this: Fast (unhealthy) food, bread, sweets, and consumer electronics are more expensive here, but that's about it so far for me, and you can live without all of those if worse came to worse.
 
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