Carta De Ciudadania For The Spouse Of Native Arg Citizen

[idois2]

Thank you Bajo_cero, that is why I emailed you right away. I am going back on Monday morning, I have all the documents, as you have advised me in our email exchange, and will post here how it goes.

 

[Patagone]

There is a bit of conflicting info in the law vs forum posts, could anyone clarify these:

1- Is it enough to appear in front of a judge and they will do the background checks needed or do you need to bring all paperwork?
2- Can you do the process by yourself or do you need (obligatory?) legal assistance?

With regards to 1: is any paperwork still needed if you just did the permanent residency (where the same papers were needed), i.e. can you reuse them or do they have a limited lifetime?

Thanks much

 

[idois2]

@ Patagone: perhaps Bajo_cero can tell us from the legal angle. I can answer from the angle of what is happening to me.

Regarding#1 - it is my understanding that within 3 days of accepting your initial solicitud (declaracion bajo juramento form), the judge will initiate the process, which includes checking into your immigration history. I assume this based on the way the carta orientativa is worded. It says (under orientacion para los interesados) that the only thing you need to present (along with declaracion bajo juramento form, which you receive from the clerk) to start the process is:
1. Certificado de domicilio with 5 days of vigencia
2. Birth certificate, with the apostile, and translated/legalized
3. Documento del interesado: this is your DNI, or in its absence (the form states) your passport

When I did my DNI @migraciones, I did not submit my birth certificate, just a marriage certificate. Now, for the purpose of naturalization and carta de ciudadania, because I want to be categorized as conyuge de ciaudadano nativo Argentino, I am submitting again our marriage certificate.

On the document I was given in tribunales (oja informativa) it does not state anything about marriage certificate, but to me it is obvious since I want to claim exception to the otherwise stated (on this oja informativa) 2 year residence requirement in the country before starting the process. This same oja informativa also does not state anything about antecedentes penales, which I anyway submitted to the migraciones, but have a copy, which I will try to submit at tribunales. Another forum member told me that she tried to submit all of her documents at once but the clerk/secretary did not want to take them. Hence, I am concluding that some documents can be added later to my file at the request of the judge. The question remains: is it better/quicker to submit all documents at once at the beginning of the process? I do not know the answer, as I do not even know that the clerk/secretary has to accept them without the order from the judge. Bajo_cero may comment as he is the expert on the proceedings.

In addition to all this, the form (oja informativa) I was given states:
Si el interesado puede acreditar medios de vida seria conveniente acompañar esa documentacion.
To me this means that it is not obligatory (at least not immediately), but we know that by the time you see a judge, a judge can deny you citizenship if you do not have medios de vida, so I will include some at the start of the process. I assume that I can later on prove my more recent medios de vida as we get closer to the judgment date. I also understand that you can add documents to your file in intervals until the judgment date. Perhaps the judge will want more recent antecedentes penales - I have no idea how it works in reality and perhaps Bajo_cero can comment.

Regarding #2 - I am doing the process on my own and will post my progress here. If it works, someone else can replicate it, and so on. It looks to me that legal representation is not obligatory and so far I have not sought it. (Legal or even peer assistance on the other hand may be useful. For example I emailed Bajo_cero to be sure that I am doing the steps correctly and in some way he did assist/advise me by answering my emails, which was helpful, and he did not charge me anything for his assistance of this kind. I am also in touch with another member from the forum who is going t this alone, and in some way we share our experience and assess each other. Our experiences are going to be similar but not identical because I am doing my paperwork in CABA and she is not. So, we'll keep the thread updated and hope it serves others in the future.

 

[idois2]

With regards to 1: is any paperowkr still needed if you just did the permanent residency (where the same papers were needed), i.e. can you reuse them or do they have a limited lifetime?

Regarding validity of the documents, this is what I understood:

Certificado de domicilio: entity asking for this certificate determines validity (esta sujeto a la solicitud del empleador o empresa solicitante) per this source. Tribunales in CABA want it within 5 days.
Certificado de Antecedentes Penales Argentino: 90 days, per this source. However, this source states: [font=Lucida Grande']Conforme al Decreto 2004/80 el trámite debe ser utilizado dentro de los 5 días de recibido (no obstante, consultar en el organismo donde presentará el certificado). [/font]And this source states: 10 dias habiles. So, to me it seems that in some way it depends on where this certificado will be used (and perhaps up to 90 days, unless it states otherwise on the original document). Perhaps legally speaking there may be other limitations to the time of validity.
Certificado de Antecedentes Penales Extranjero: no idea, I assume the same as Certificado de Antecedentes Penales Argentino. Here's a legal/practical question: what if the last time you brought these and used them in migraciones was truly within 90 days of the date they were issued, and you have since not left Argentina (or have not not gone to your country or origin or immediate past residence, or have not gone to establish a domicile there), is this document still valid (since practically you could not have committed a crime not having been there). I imagine a good lawyer has the necessary vocabulary to question the system, while we, the laypersons may need to seek alternatives.

 

[Bajo_cero2]

Patagone, your case is going to be under the Federal Chamber of General Roca. The requirements are different because they apply the decree 999/31 while at CABA some apply the law 346 or the abolished 21.795.

Did you check if your judge is the one in Zapala? I have a case there without DNI but I had to appeal before the chamber.

In facts, they apply the procedure stablished in a law project of 1938 (believe it or not) and they ask for all the requierements before the oficios.

In CABA there are some judges who enforce the valid law.

The whole process is about the judge asking for the criminal and terrorist check but in the country side they might ask you for the local police check and reincidencia but not the criminal check from your country of birth.

The foreign and local criminal check last 2 years.

Regarding if you need a lawyer or not, depends, it is luck at CABA. You have 10 courts and 20 Secretaries, so, luck is needed if you do it by yourself. With a lawyer, he can ask for an automatic dismissal in case the judge you got is not good dor your case. For example, i just started a case of a British and even the judge has no issues, the Secretary does, so, I just apply for a change and that's it.

 

[idois2]

The foreign and local criminal check last 2 years.

Good to know this.
On the oja informativa/guia basica para ciudadanos that I received today from Secretaria it is stated that corresponding foreign criminal check from native country remains valid for as long as interesado has not re-entered his/her country of origin.

 

[idois2]

UPDATE:

This morning all my documents were accepted and I was assigned a case number, a juzgado and the corresponding secretary. I was given an information sheet (Guia Basica Para Ciudadanos) to follow along the steps that are being taken, some of which will require an action on my part when I am told by the secretary. Communication is always and only in person and with my DNI (no phone/email I was told), and I was told that I should check in about once a month to see how my case is going and if there is any new action required on my part. Compared to the last time I went, this morning was a breeze and the people I dealt with were pleasant and professional. I was pleasantly surprised.

The documents they took (Imagine I had all of them and corresponding copies on me!) were:

- Copy of my DNI (compared copy to original and stamped the copy)
- Copy of 1st page/biographical page from passport AND a copy of an entry stamp I declared as a stamp indicating my entry into the country. I selected a stamp from more than 2 years ago randomly, in case the 2 year requirement came up, but nobody asked anything so I did not probe further.
- Copy of my birth certificate, with apostille and translation/legalization (compared copy to original and stamped the copy)
- Certificado de Domicilio
- Certificado de Matrimonio (compared copy to original and stamped the copy)
- Copy of spouse's DNI (compared copy to original and stamped the copy) *asked to see spouse's birth certificate, then gave back and did not keep a copy (I imagine to assure it is a native Argentine spouse?)
- Certificado de Antecedentes Penales Argentinos from NOV 2015
- Certificado de Antecedentes Penales Extranjero, with apostile and translation/legalization, from NOV 2015 (compared copy to original and stamped the copy)
- 3 comprobantes de medios de vida: in my case 3 monotributo payments (spouse's comprobantes also serve)

I was given the Guia Basica Para Ciudadanos information sheet which explains the next steps (they went over the steps with me):

- the court/judge orders 9 processes (oficios) to be started at this time (it is not specified but I wonder if this involves background checks, immigration check, AFIP checks, etc?)
- I should come back at least monthly to check the status of my file/case in person with DNI. I was told that I could give a power of attorney to someone to do this for me if I wanted to.
- In about a month I should come back in person to take the sheet which contains the wording which I must publish in a paper announcing my naturalization (the publication is the only expense in this entire process and it costs around 3-400 pesos, so I was told). This is called an edicto. After publication I am given a comprobante and ejemplares which I take back to the secretary.
- If I return to my country of origin I must bring new Certificado de Antecedentes Extranjero Penales (with apostile, transtalion and legalization), otherwise the ones I submitted remain valid, as does the Certificado de Antecedentes Penales Argentino. This is then presented to the judge towards the end of the naturalization process, which lasts approximately 12-18 months (I was told this and it states so on this information sheet I was given)
- Towards the end of the process (I will be told when, since they want me to check with them monthly), I need to bring updated comprobantes de medios de vida, but this time, in case of monotributista, I need to bring (I cite from the information sheet) certificacion de ingresos personales por controlador publico matriculado en el capital federal especificando tarea que desarrolla.

So, that's about it We'll see how it goes.

 

[Girino]

Mu juzgado is the one in San Martín, please tell me something encouraging.

 

[ElCordobés]

idois2 You can follow your case here http://scw.pjn.gov.a...scw/home.seam

Register, plug in your case number and save it as a favorite (there's a little star to click to save it) You'll get an email around 7pm on days where there has been a change. Sometimes the updates will make sense, sometimes they won't.

It might not show up in the system for over a week. Don't be concerned if it's not there right away.

Suerte!

 

[Bajo_cero2]

Mu juzgado is the one in San Martín, please tell me something encouraging.

Only if you want that I lie you.
One judge accepts working under the table, the other not. One accepts to apply without DNI, the other not. One delays 1 year, the other about 3/4.
This is the worst possible place in the country for applying. % of rejected cases are up to 80% while in CABA is 0,12.