CFK & intolerance

[solerboy]

Nestor K paid a huge part of the debt with a huge discount. Not bad.


Regards

Not bad for whom ?

 

[Amargo]

Ay Argentina! Los padres de la Patria como el gran San Martín se deben estar retorciendo en sus tumbas viendo la lacra que "gobierna" el país.

 

[Dipoots]

Not bad for whom ?

Exactly, I really do like Bajo_Zero posts but I do find the premise and beliefs "off"....

I find myself thinking that IF these posts are representative of the thinking and culture of the people... then it is saying that it is OK to renege on your promises, OK to lie so that you can get away with paying less debts; debts that weren't forced onto the borrower. OK to take private property without paying for it... OK to rob and steal and get away with it. OK for Korruption to continue as long as I get my cut... What would such behavior and beliefs do to a country's integrity and a person's ethics... Are such behavior and beliefs what you will teach your kids?

I am not sure if such behavior is representative of the Argentines...

 

[sesamosinsal]

I find myself thinking that IF these posts are representative of the thinking and culture of the people... then it is saying that it is OK to renege on your promises, OK to lie so that you can get away with paying less debts; debts that weren't forced onto the borrower. OK to take private property without paying for it... OK to rob and steal and get away with it. OK for Korruption to continue as long as I get my cut... What would such behavior and beliefs do to a country's integrity and a person's ethics... Are such behavior and beliefs what you will teach your kids?

I certainly see your points. I think the Argentine government would respond by saying that they'll play by the rules when everyone else does. Why is it that the entire media establishment gets all up in arms about the Argentine government manipulating the inflation to pay less on inflation-linked bonds, but that the manipulation of the LIBOR (possibly since the early 1990s) goes unchecked? The last time I heard, they were "close to making arrests," but that was back in July. Where are the arrests? Where is the outrage?

The media never talks about it, but the market is constantly being manipulated. It's how the market works. Ask any trader.

And "debts not forced onto the borrower" -- that's funny. You either go into debt, or sink. That's how this world works. If you have no dollars, you have to go into debt to get them. The only country that really doesn't have to play by the rules--but insists that everyone must--is the United States. Print, print, print... until, of course, the U.S. dollar is dethroned as the main global reserve currency. We'll see just how fanatical the U.S. is about free trade when it actually has to maintain a positive trade balance in order to avoid being smothered in foreign debt.

When you talk about private property, I suppose you're referring to YPF. YPF-Repsol had in its possession an extremely important natural resource. They weren't producing enough of it, and hadn't since 2004. I know there are various reasons for it, some of which are YPF's fault and some the government's. But that's the reality.

Corruption is an issue where we agree, but your spelling of "Korruption" seems to suggest that corruption was only introduced to Argentina under Nestor and Cristina. Obviously we know that is not true. Until there is greater government transparency in Argentina, corruption will always exist.

 

[solerboy]

I certainly see your points. I think the Argentine government would respond by saying that they'll play by the rules when everyone else does. Why is it that the entire media establishment gets all up in arms about the Argentine government manipulating the inflation to pay less on inflation-linked bonds, but that the manipulation of the LIBOR (possibly since the early 1990s) goes unchecked? The last time I heard, they were "close to making arrests," but that was back in July. Where are the arrests? Where is the outrage?

People on a Buenos Aires website talk about the situation in Argentina.

Why would they be overly concerned about banking scandals in Frankfurt, New York or London.

There is plenty of ongoing outrage about the LIBOR scandal in London, I suspect that this will take about two years before anthing serious happens on this.

These things take time, but I suppose it does seem slow to us when we are living in a country where a new law seems to be passed every day.

 

[sesamosinsal]

People on a Buenos Aires website talk about the situation in Argentina.

Why would they be overly concerned about banking scandals in Frankfurt, New York or London.

There is plenty of ongoing outrage about the LIBOR scandal in London, I suspect that this will take about two years before anthing serious happens on this.

These things take time, but I suppose it does seem slow to us when we are living in a country where a new law seems to be passed every day.

This is a Buenos Aires forum? Who knew?

The LIBOR isn't just relevant in Frankfurt, New York or London. It's important worldwide. In fact, it was used to calculate interest payments for the BODEN 2012. It might not be relevant to your agenda on this forum, but it's certainly relevant to Argentina.

So, this is quite an interesting double standard: the Argentine government manipulates INDEC statistics, and they're considered "liars" and "cheats." However, when traders and banks manipulate interest rates (among other things), there's no hyperbole and just a reassurance that justice "takes time."

Interesting. I hate inflation as much as the next person, and I don't believe two wrongs make a right. Nonetheless, I don't think it is fair to hold traders to one standard, and governments to another.

 

[Noelle]

Very good point Bajo_cero2. The 46% protesting are offended by the fact that now they cant hide their earnings, they have to pay taxes just like everywhere in the civilized world. Unfortunately this, like previous ARG Govs failed to rule over inflation, but most people ignore inflation happens bc this is such liberal Gov they accept the workers unions pre-arrange salary increase every march, therefore more money increase prices. Arg have the Gov they deserve. Even the protesters agree that they are better off now than 7 years ago.

 

[gusgutier]

I certainly see your points. I think the Argentine government would respond by saying that they'll play by the rules when everyone else does. Why is it that the entire media establishment gets all up in arms about the Argentine government manipulating the inflation to pay less on inflation-linked bonds, but that the manipulation of the LIBOR (possibly since the early 1990s) goes unchecked? The last time I heard, they were "close to making arrests," but that was back in July. Where are the arrests? Where is the outrage?

The media never talks about it, but the market is constantly being manipulated. It's how the market works. Ask any trader.

And "debts not forced onto the borrower" -- that's funny. You either go into debt, or sink. That's how this world works. If you have no dollars, you have to go into debt to get them. The only country that really doesn't have to play by the rules--but insists that everyone must--is the United States. Print, print, print... until, of course, the U.S. dollar is dethroned as the main global reserve currency. We'll see just how fanatical the U.S. is about free trade when it actually has to maintain a positive trade balance in order to avoid being smothered in foreign debt.

When you talk about private property, I suppose you're referring to YPF. YPF-Repsol had in its possession an extremely important natural resource. They weren't producing enough of it, and hadn't since 2004. I know there are various reasons for it, some of which are YPF's fault and some the government's. But that's the reality.

Corruption is an issue where we agree, but your spelling of "Korruption" seems to suggest that corruption was only introduced to Argentina under Nestor and Cristina. Obviously we know that is not true. Until there is greater government transparency in Argentina, corruption will always exist.

100% agreement. In addition, you´re pointing out an extreme concern matter when talking about dollar as international reserve. Interesting times are coming when E.U. grows again and fly to quality dollars were no longer so needed.

 

[arlean]

Bajo_Cero, I only know what I hear from the Argentines. My Argentina friends are very upset and scared. That second word is the word they use. But you seem really knowledgeable. There seems to me every reason that this country should be prosperous. In fact, I am VERY interested in Argentina history and this is a puzzle I keep looking at. Argentina once had the 2nd highest per capita income in the world and was competition for the United States for first place.

Argentina is a wonderful country with incredible wealth and intelligent people. Can you, as an insider, tell those of us who love Argentina, why the country keeps ending up in this kind of mess? Whose fault actually is it? Do you know?

 

[solerboy]

This is a Buenos Aires forum? Who knew?

The LIBOR isn't just relevant in Frankfurt, New York or London. It's important worldwide. In fact, it was used to calculate interest payments for the BODEN 2012. It might not be relevant to your agenda on this forum, but it's certainly relevant to Argentina.

So, this is quite an interesting double standard: the Argentine government manipulates INDEC statistics, and they're considered "liars" and "cheats." However, when traders and banks manipulate interest rates (among other things), there's no hyperbole and just a reassurance that justice "takes time."

Interesting. I hate inflation as much as the next person, and I don't believe two wrongs make a right. Nonetheless, I don't think it is fair to hold traders to one standard, and governments to another.

The whole thrust of your argument is ridiculous.

Firstly you are saying because there are dishonest people in the world then it should be acceptable for an elected government to lie to its people and to the outside world.

You have asserted several times, without any truth that there has been no reaction to the LIBOR scandal. This is completely untrue, the due processes are being followed in the UK and US. There is a government enqiery in the UK.

The LIBOR scandal seems to have been caused by bank officials lying. They have now been discovered and are being investigate. It has been reported widely in the press and several senoir bankers have already resigned. However there is due procedure in the civilized world. In the UK they just dont make it up as they go along as in Argentina.

So, the LIBOR scandal has been discovered, the British Government have commented and investigations are taking place.

Contrast that wilth Argentina, where the Governement itself is complicit in falsifying data, they continue to deny it, although primary school children could work it out for themselves.

So you linking of the LIBOR scandal is both incorrect and absolutly ridiculous. There is no double standard. The Chief Executive and Chairman of Barclays have both resigned and there may well be prosecutions.

Please dont try to use this argument again. Two wrongs dont make a right.